Jackson Free Press

The Jackson City Council voted down Ward 3 Councilman Kenneth Stokes' proposed Saggy Pants Ordinance on Tuesday with a 4-to-2 vote. Opposition to the ordinance included Councilmen Jeff Weill, Marshand Crisler, Leslie McLemore and Councilwoman Margaret Barrett-Simone. Supporters included Stokes and Councilman Bluntson, with Councilman Charles Tillman absent.

Mayor Frank Melton went home to Texas to recuperate from heart problems, but attended the meeting through speakerphone. He said he would impose the ordinance through executive order, without offering details on how to go about it.

Melton pointed to baggy pants as a top target of his passion for fighting crime at a December press conference, just prior to entering himself into St. Dominic's Hospital. Even then he revealed small knowledge on how to impose the ordinance.

"We're going to start today with the dress ordinance. It'll be a 4-to-3 vote. I'm going to veto that, and I'll have the three votes to sustain my position, and we'll move on," Melton said, though reporters told him that he could not veto a no-vote.

Both Melton and Stokes believe a drooping pant is an indicator of what's going wrong in Jackson. Stokes said saggy trousers are an open door to other misbehavior and an issue of public decency.

"We got these young boys who don't even wear underwear, and the old folks have to put up with that," Stokes said after the vote, and promised that another councilman would be bringing the issue back up in the future.

Some other cities have surpassed the Jackson council and are carrying out their crusade against plummeting trousers. The city of Flint, Mich., passed two ordinances dealing specifically with juvenile residents, while the police chief of that town is heavily pursuing a policy of cracking down on public indecency—which happens to entail slouching breeches.

Flint Councilman Sheldon Neeley acknowledged that the city has heightened its attention on juveniles.

"The saggy pants thing wasn't an actual specific ordinance passed by the council, just local indecency laws that the chief has decided to enforce," Neeley said. "We have decency policies on the books that had not gotten enforced—public exposure issues that speak to the showing of skin."

Michael J. Steinberg, legal director of the Michigan ACLU, told the Detroit Free Press that the city council and the mayor needed to concentrate on bigger issues.

"Given that Flint has one of the highest crime rates in the country, you would think the police chief would be fighting crime instead of the latest fashion fad," Steinberg said.

Crisler agreed with the Michigan ACLU, saying police resources needed to be spent in places other than fashion.

"Our police are busy as it is," Crisler said. "I'd be behind it as an issue of decency, but … I refuse to go against anything that infringes upon American civil rights, and the last time I checked, the First Amendment protects you on how you dress. That First Amendment is a tough thing to get past."

Mississippi ACLU Executive Director Nsombi Lambright agreed with Crisler.

"It's a kind of profiling that'll be used to target young people that law enforcement feels is causing trouble. It'll give them one more opportunity to stop, harass or question them without due process," Lambright said. "My son wears baggy pants and he's not a trouble-maker. I saw his father wearing baggy pants, (businessman, hip-hop artist and JFP columnist) Kamikaze—and he's not a trouble-maker. We should be careful when we try to associate a person's fashion with criminal activity. We had the same trouble back in the '70s with law enforcement targeting people who wore afros."

Deputy City Attorney Monica Joiner put the issue to bed this week after issuing a Jan. 12 memorandum to the council that the Saggy Pants Ordinance failed case law that acts as a guideline in a municipality's constitutional right to enforce dress ordinances. The O'Brien Test—cited in the 2004 case PHE, Inc v. State—demands the municipality meet four requirements, but the ordinance fails the fourth requirement: that the "restriction must be no greater than that which is essential to the furtherance of the governmental interest."

"It is the opinion of the office of the city attorney that the Saggy Pants Ordinance, as presented to date, does not meet all four requirements of the O'Brien Test thus it would be doubtful that the same would pass constitutional muster," Joiner wrote.

"If we passed something like that here, I can't see police dedicating their full attention to it, not just because of their already swamped schedules but also because of the legal challenges waiting for them if they do," Crisler said.

Previous Comments

ID

142849

Comment

yes, Mr. Mayor, how about coming up with strategies for solving crime that do not actually break laws?

Author

Izzy

Date

2009-01-13T14:05:47-06:00

ID

142851

Comment

I would like to see a statistic on how many crimes were committed in Jackson (or anywhere else, for that matter) while wearing saggy pants. I would say very little.

Author

golden eagle

Date

2009-01-13T14:40:09-06:00

ID

142855

Comment

Embarassing! Could be the single most ri-friggin-diculous waste of time any law making body could undertake....EVER. That is all! smh!

Author

Kamikaze

Date

2009-01-13T15:05:13-06:00

ID

142864

Comment

I have a feeling real criminals wear clothes that allow a little more mobility, you know, for those times you need run fast to make a getaway.

Author

Mark Michalovic

Date

2009-01-13T20:30:33-06:00

ID

142867

Comment

I have a feeling real criminals wear clothes that allow a little more mobility, you know, for those times you need run fast to make a getaway. Eggzackly! Pretty hard imagining getting away from the police for too long while tripping over their pants.

Author

golden eagle

Date

2009-01-13T22:06:26-06:00

ID

142878

Comment

Praise God. This is the most blatant racial-profiling law I've ever seen put before the City Council, and the idea that the Council was actually considering it has bothered the hell out of me for a long time. (There's one South Carolina city that--I'm not making this up--has drooping drawers punishable by a year in jail.) If you're seeing something that you shouldn't have to look at under indecent exposure statutes, that's what they're for; no new law is needed. But if you're not (and 99% of the time you're not), it's a fashion thing. The idea that an Eastover resident can mow the lawn in his boxers without getting in trouble, while somebody in west Jackson wearing identical boxers with droopy drawers over them could get fined for it, is ludicrous. This bill deserved to die and I'm glad it did. One less thing to worry about. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go take my Sean Johns out of cold storage...

Author

Tom Head

Date

2009-01-14T11:43:34-06:00

ID

142880

Comment

You know, while we're on the subject of the Council, are there any viable challengers who have emerged to Bluntson, Stokes, or Tillman?

Author

Tom Head

Date

2009-01-14T11:49:44-06:00

ID

142881

Comment

Bettye Dagner-Cook -- that's Tillman's Ward, right? Not sure about the others.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2009-01-14T12:04:00-06:00

ID

142882

Comment

It is--I'm glad she's running again! She only lost by 58 votes last time, and I can't believe Tillman has made many friends in his ward over the past four years...

Author

Tom Head

Date

2009-01-14T12:09:08-06:00

ID

142892

Comment

this is what kenny stokes does. he takes trivial issues that are favored by his predominantly older ward and uses them to score brownie points, while not actually trying to solve any of the real problems facing them. this is the same man who two years ago opposed housing development in his ward because it didn't go through him first. he's the biggest joke of a councilman we have, and that's saying a lot with the characters on that council. yet, he keeps getting re-elected because he sends out christmas cards...

Author

eyerah

Date

2009-01-14T15:22:31-06:00

ID

142894

Comment

After nearly four years, Melton continues to amaze. As I commented before, it makes sense that his response to a near doubling of the murder rate on his watch is to combat droopy drawers--that's how he got elected in the first place! The Bottom Line: "Pull your pants up and give the earring back to your sister." Jackson heard that and said, "This man is a genius. Mayor Johnson has a sophisticated suite of policies that have consistently lowered crime, but what has he done about the saggy pants menace?!" Thus, Mayor Melton. I'll tell you, Melton makes Blagojevich look like a passionate advocate of due process. The city attorney's office, which usually only asks Melton "how high?", has said the ordinance is unconstitutional. He still fantasizes that he has veto power, but he lost the City Council vote by a 2:1 ratio anyway. So he says he'll issue an executive order. Judge Jordan, please let's move things along so the courts might free Jackson of this midget Nero.

Author

Brian C Johnson

Date

2009-01-14T15:37:39-06:00

ID

142904

Comment

If you're seeing something that you shouldn't have to look at under indecent exposure statutes, that's what they're for; no new law is needed. But if you're not (and 99% of the time you're not), it's a fashion thing. The idea that an Eastover resident can mow the lawn in his boxers without getting in trouble, while somebody in west Jackson wearing identical boxers with droopy drawers over them could get fined for it, is ludicrous. This bill deserved to die and I'm glad it did. One less thing to worry about. Hey, how about fining people for wearing socks with sandals or having visible panty lines? Why just stop at saggy pants? Better yet, why don't we just all wear uniforms like JPS students? That'll fix it!

Author

LatashaWillis

Date

2009-01-14T16:50:28-06:00

ID

142906

Comment

Good post, eyerah. And unfortunately, Stokes will probably get re-elected overwhelmingly despite his unwavering support for Melton and his empty initiatives. "Everybody get out and vote, to elect...Kenny Stokes!"

Author

Jeff Lucas

Date

2009-01-14T19:26:00-06:00

ID

142912

Comment

Have any of you ever tried to work with a person who wears saggy pants? They can't get their work done because they are constantly using one hand to keep their pants from falling off. I agree that it was a waste of city council time, but isn't it somewhat disrespectful to walk around exposed that way? Especially in front of the older citizens that eyerah speaks of. Bottom Line-Belts.

Author

saint H

Date

2009-01-14T21:22:21-06:00

ID

142913

Comment

An employer certainly has the right to enforce a workplace dress code. Productivity, safety, and public relations are just a few good reasons for doing so. However, that's a very different issue from the one at hand.

Author

Mark Michalovic

Date

2009-01-14T21:49:05-06:00

ID

142915

Comment

Of course, an employer has to demand that the work get done, and must, and should fire someone who can't be productive, or dress inappropriately. That has nothing to do with the government trying to tell someone how baggy their pants can be. That's absurd and patently unconstitutional.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2009-01-14T22:03:07-06:00

ID

142916

Comment

I had taken some kids to the go-karts at the Park some years back and the kid in line in front of us, his sagging pants fell all the way to his ankles. Sort of ruined the "I'm cool" look.

Author

Jennifer2

Date

2009-01-15T07:32:47-06:00

ID

142917

Comment

Ha ha...I've seen that happen myself. Pants falling down, the inability to do productive work in droopy pants...these are basically why I'm not afraid of people in baggy pants committing crimes against me. As for the workplace, an employer doesn't need a law to enforce an appropriate dress code. They can already do that. I don't recall any employers ever calling for this kind of law, for that matter.

Author

Mark Michalovic

Date

2009-01-15T08:48:08-06:00

ID

142918

Comment

Baggy pants, this decade's equivalent of bound feet only reversible. I always laugh when I drive by someone with sagging pants who is having to use one hand to keep them from falling down. And it LOOKS so uncomfortable. As someone who wore pantyhose eons ago (but never again!), that feeling of always having to pull the damn things up. Who would volunteer for that?

Author

Jennifer2

Date

2009-01-15T09:54:33-06:00

ID

142919

Comment

I feel the same regarding pantyhose - nasty business. Uncomfortable & restrictive, one of the many things women seem "expected" to spend money on and participate in, leaving men unencumbered and more flush with cash not wasted on that. I like seeing youth trends, creative ideas, though if it goes too far it can be impractical. From wikipedia entry on hip hop fashion: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baggy_pants) Rap Music and Street Consciousness styles including baggy [[tro The style of sagging one's pants, or wearing them baggy and low without a belt, was also style that originated in prisons. This style of fashion, along with its associated hand signs and territorial or "homeboy" mentality, was adopted by African-American youth in Los Angeles initially, and later by the hip hop community at large. The style of sagging one's pants is also a style that originated in poor, urban communities where clothes had to be passed down from older, bigger siblings to younger, smaller family members.

Author

Izzy

Date

2009-01-15T10:20:12-06:00

ID

142920

Comment

Let's be frank: Teetering heels and too-long fingernails are also a problem in the workplace. But we don't need the government passing an ordinance against them. I suspect baggy pants are going to wear out as a trend on their own.

Author

DonnaLadd

Date

2009-01-15T10:38:32-06:00

ID

142921

Comment

I suspect all three will eventually be replaced by a trend towards teetering heels, too-long fingernails, baggy pants, unsecured bracelets, loose tube tops, unsized monocles, and precariously balanced Trump wigs, all worn at once. We'll all walk around like jugglers!

Author

Tom Head

Date

2009-01-15T10:44:27-06:00

ID

142923

Comment

Izzy, the idea of baggy pants is a "prison signature". Prisoners are not given belts because of the history of belts being used as weapons and as instruments of suicide. Also, the sagging of the pants would give "some" gay prisoners exposure. I don't know how/what they do to turn white underwear pink, but it is a common thing at Parchman. Many of our young, of all races who practice this fashion, are not aware of the germ (beginning) of saggy pants. There is absolutely no commentary on the tube about the orgin and now that it is making TONS of money for men and women who were their pants belted or fitted in a way that does not lend itself to exposure, pants will continue to drop like it's hot. Most of the schools have dress codes: Enforce them. All states have laws governing indecent exposure: Enfore them. This will allow our City Council and mayor a chance to be about the business of more important issues which have so negatively impacted our City. Saggy pants ain't never hurt or killed nobody. Old people have washed and wiped the butts of most of these kids and they really have nothing to expose that we have not seen. LOL! On a more serious note, just this am, I saw the health report card for MS. We have the largest number of sick people and lead the nation with cases of diabetes and hypertension. We had already claimed our #1 position with teen pregnancies and HIV/AIDS. Let's get real folks!

Author

justjess

Date

2009-01-15T10:58:53-06:00

ID

142924

Comment

We're also #1 in chlamydia and gonorrhea, according to a CDC report released this week...

Author

Tom Head

Date

2009-01-15T11:01:47-06:00

ID

142925

Comment

"Many of our young, of all races who practice this fashion, are not aware of the germ (beginning) of saggy pants. There is absolutely no commentary on the tube about the orgin and now that it is making TONS of money for men and women who were their pants belted or fitted in a way that does not lend itself to exposure, pants will continue to drop like it's hot. " - just jess Yes, I have been thinking this, and it's been on other threads, the way that corporate america and consumers in america enjoy these trends, knowing not their origins. Maybe that is the case wiht many "street fashions" that end up in department stores? In ethnomusicology they call it schitzophonia -the separation of a sound from its source. I wonder in the world of sociology/fashion what it is called. We need to be better on health care, isn't it our top industry? OR close? Let's be working on that, good health is a baseline for any kind of economic stability.

Author

Izzy

Date

2009-01-15T11:15:37-06:00

ID

142926

Comment

Okay, devil's advocate mode engaged: Baggy pants may or may not have originated in prisons. From everything I've read, the jury's still out on whether or not this is an urban legend (Snopes does not dispute the prison-origin story, but it doesn't cite it either). Let's remember that parachute pants, whatever the hell MC Hammer wore, etc. were popular before baggy pants caught on, so the origin might not be that exotic to teen culture. Let's remember also that all of this started about the same time young women started wearing tight pants slung kinda low too--coinslots, "whale tails," Britney Spears and her famous two-inch zipper, etc.--so all of this could just be reflective of a change in social mores re: what is and what isn't acceptable to show in public. And I wear a black leather jacket, which in popular culture originated with greasers who borrowed their look from motorcycle gangs. I'm about as far from being in a motorcycle gang as you can get. So I'm not sure prison origins of the trend, even if true, would be relevant anymore.

Author

Tom Head

Date

2009-01-15T11:38:48-06:00

ID

142927

Comment

I'm a little skeptical of the prison story because it's easy to design clothing that won't sag down even without belts. For example, I recall Parchman inmates used to wear jumpsuits instead of pants, but I don't know what they're issued these days.

Author

Mark Michalovic

Date

2009-01-15T11:51:16-06:00

ID

142940

Comment

I think it's all a ploy by the corporate juggernaut known as "big underwear" represented by Michael Jordan and various types of fruit to protect their free advertising space in public.

Author

WMartin

Date

2009-01-16T07:28:52-06:00

ID

142942

Comment

That's one heck of a conspiracy theory.

Author

golden eagle

Date

2009-01-16T09:07:06-06:00

ID

142944

Comment

Nah. This style's all about easy access, baby.

Author

Jeff Lucas

Date

2009-01-16T11:05:08-06:00