Chief Moore: 'I Have No Regrets'
 by Adam Lynch
Photo by Jaro Vacek
May 18, 2005
After little more than two years playing patch-up with the Jackson Police Department, Jackson Police Chief Robert Moore will be closing shop on his tenure when his contract runs out June 30. Moore spoke to Mayor Johnson last week concerning the possibility of an interim replacement before his contract expires, but Moore said he’s willing to work until the ending date in his contract paperwork.
“It’s the fact that I have a contract, and I will honor that contract,” Moore said. “My intent was not necessarily what the mayor wanted to do, but I’m flexible enough to honor everything I do.”
Moore leaves with a legacy of a department improved since he’d entered it two years ago. Moore, who was hired after an exhaustive months-long search by Johnson, emphasized re-education and community interaction. He moved Internal Affairs to a different location and juggled commanders. Numerous crooked cops were ousted under his administration, and the department has increased its staff to almost 500 individuals. Nevertheless, critics and mainstream media editorials have dogged Moore for having little passion in running the department.
“Jackson needs a chief willing to demonstrate a passion for working day and night to make residents feel safe,” wrote Clarion-Ledger columnist Eric Stringfellow last week, adding, “Sadly, Chief Moore never figured that out.”
Moore refused to address Stringfellow’s comments, but asserts that the improvements he made in the department should have spoken well enough for his passion.
“The public will have to answer what more I’d have to have done to combat perceptions,” Moore said. “We’ve done everything we could possibly do. …We’ve laid out all the accomplishments. We’ve got four substations that we put in place; we’ve got community-oriented government, which we put in place, we’ve got the second lowest crime rate in 24 years. We have one of the best executive staffs that the department has seen. The COMSTAT process was improved. You name it, it was done.”
Moore has been criticized repeatedly for statements reported by The Clarion-Ledger in 2003 that the perception of crime in the city was worse than reality. The statements, according to critics, came off as insensitive.
Jackson Precinct 4 COPS program moderator Bob Oertel described the perception-vs.-reality war between the media and Moore with disdain.
“I think that the current dialogue in the city regarding the JPD Chief, crime in Jackson, and the semantics of ‘perception’ is pitiful,” he said. “There are so-called experts stating that a police chief has to be media savvy to win over the public’s trust. Instead, I suggest we hope for an individual that can communicate effective strategies that instill the JPD and Jackson community (including Hinds County) with the tools that will create a safer environment in which to live and reduce crime.”
Oertel said it was up to Jackson residents, not just the chief, to be active and well informed regarding what is happening at the neighborhood and precinct level, and said residents need to demand that the media give a fair representation of how these strategies are being implemented.
Moore, however, claims his infamous 2003 “perception” statements were “totally manufactured.”
“That perception statement was erroneous in the first place. It was simply a misnomer, and if that was the only thing I can be accused of saying, then I’ve got it pretty damn well made,” Moore said. “I have no integrity problems, no character problems. If the worst they can say about me is that, then I am graced.”
Moore called the media’s relationship with him “unfortunate,” and said the acrid relationship between the media and past Jackson police chiefs have had a lot to do with the revolving-door replacements of that position throughout the last 15 years. There have been 10 chiefs, including interims, during that time, despite statistics showing a decline in crime figures since 1991.
“I just don’t understand (the media). I guess they were doing this before I got here, and I guess they’ll just do it to somebody else after I’m gone,” Moore said. “Why the revolving door on chiefs (has to) be like this is beyond me, but I hope it stops with me. I really do. I think the men and women of this department deserve more than that.”
Frank Melton has indicated that he will pursue a more stringent policing policy if he becomes mayor, but has provided few specifics about how his policy will differ from the current administration’s. He has refused several interviews with the Jackson Free Press to discuss details of his crime strategies and other city issues.
Moore had pushed for community policing in his tenure, and said “zero tolerance”—which typically indicates increased jail time for even minor offenses—would only work with an infinite amount of prison space.
“Zero tolerance goes wrong because you can’t build enough prisons for it,” said Moore. “Somebody uses the word ‘zero tolerance,’ and you’re essentially taking action on every law in the book, and no one gets any type of warning or breaks. You may as well start building more prisons now.”
Hinds County Sheriff Malcolm McMillin and local judges have repeatedly had to address capacity problems in the county jail system, which has been accused of bordering on breaking state laws on inmate capacity. McMillin says a zero-tolerance crackdown would increase law enforcement and jailing for violations, but said that there were other options to confinement.
“I’ve advocated zero tolerance for a long time, but for it to be effective you’ve got to have the capacity for dealing with it,” McMillin said. “Remember that there are other ways for zero tolerance to work. Jail is a remedy, but also community service is a remedy. ... Instead of putting somebody in jail for 30 days in a row, which may cost him his job, why don’t we put him (to work) for 30 Saturdays?”
Republican candidate Rick Whitlow, a strong supporter of zero tolerance, is formerly the executive director of police watchdog group SafeCity Watch. When asked for comment in 2003 on Moore’s competency, Whitlow responded that the bigger issue bottle-necking crime control in the city actually lay with a crowded court system rather than the JPD. Whitlow still maintains this argument but adds that more jail space can be made available on a private basis if needed.
“If you’re serious about fighting crime and you need more jail space, then privately fund these things. I’m not about putting everybody in jail and throwing away the key, but if more room is needed in a growing area then more space may need to be created,” Whitlow said, adding that business owners had considered the suggestion years ago when Whitlow was with SafeCity Watch. (Melton is on record as opposed to private prisons and jails. In a July 2, 2002, “Bottom Line” commenting on WLBT, he said that private prisons “are not about corrections or crime and punishment. They are simply about money. And guess who is paying the price. Now if you want to do what is right, make them close that mess down and put the money in education and prevention.”
Whitlow said zero tolerance and community policing—usually considered opposing criminal-justice theories, the first reactive and punitive and the second more proactive and preventive—do not have to be mutually exclusive and that electronic monitoring and preventive measures could also play a role.
“There is a component of zero tolerance that has room for community policing,” Whitlow said. “Zero tolerance has to be monitored and evaluated regularly. … We will not be doing indiscriminate head busting.”
Whatever the policy of the new chief, Moore said whoever inherits the department will be inheriting a good one.
“I’m proud of the men and women of the Jackson Police Department and of the public which has gotten involved with us. All the things we put in place while I was here are still going to be here when I‘m gone. As far as I can tell, the only thing they‘ll have to deal with is moving the department (back to its original headquarters) and working out the department communication system with the county,” said Moore. “As I finish up my tenure here, I have no regrets.”
COMMENTS
Moore had pushed for community policing in his tenure, and said ìzero toleranceîówhich typically indicates increased jail time for even minor offensesówould only work with an infinite amount of prison space.
ìZero tolerance goes wrong because you canít build enough prisons for it,î said Moore. ìSomebody uses the word ëzero tolerance,í and youíre essentially taking action on every law in the book, and no one gets any type of warning or breaks. You may as well start building more prisons now.î
Good to see Moore finally coming clean that zero tolerance can work. If there is sufficient jail space, it will work. If we spend the money the technique will be successful. Thanks for letting the cat out of the bag that Moore tailored the efforts of JPD to the available jail space. Moore recognized he had a capacity restraint and instead of forcing Jackson and Hinds County to face the jail space issue head on with arrests he throttled back JPD's effort to fit the available bandwidth. Avoidance and denial.
Game.Over.June.7th.
Uh, before we get too serious about "zero tolerance" and jail construction, shouldn't we clean up the laws? Or do we really want to throw cohabitators and others into the clink?
PBR, do you even understand the meaning of 'infinite'?
It. Would. Not. Seem. So.
;-)
   Posted by: ladd on May 19, 05 | 11:10 am
Zero tolerance would also apply to all those North Jackson weekend pot smokers. They are hardened criminals, too, according to the Drug Warriors.
Look out, boys.
Posted by: ladd on May 19, 05 | 11:31 am
Kate do you understand a figure of speech when you read one? It is not an issue of needing infinite space. We can build until we reach a level of capacity where there are excess beds to jail heads as measured on any daily, weekly, monthly or yearly trend line forecast.
I am sure if the reporter was under any instructions other than to hold another Sunday morning with interview he could have asked Moore to be more specific since the notion of Jackson needing an infinite number of space is illogical on its face. But since there is a phobic fear of framing or shaping like the big media that type of follow-on question for more depth does not get asked in this type of touchy feely interview.
Moore admits zero tolerance can work. He is smart enough to know that we can build to reach the needed capacity. I think you are also smart enough to know that we could build what it takes though you won't admit the possibility because of your philosophic opposition to the approach.
As for Fondren and Belhaven pot smokers, regardless of their consumption frequency, if they are breaking the law, they are breaking the law. They can't have it both ways. Recreational drug use, any type of drug use, is not above the law. That includes the many in this city who drive with a blood alcohol content above the legal limit.
No, PBR, I think you are clearly missing the point with zero tolerance and the very real problem with space to put all the minor offenders who get caught up and don't get deals cut for them, because it's zero tolerance.
And I'm not talking about the Fondren and Belhaven pot smokers you are, I suspect. I'm talking about the ones who go around loudly proclaiming the need for zero tolerance and the drug war, except for themselves. They know who they are.
Posted by: ladd on May 19, 05 | 12:00 pm
He is not admitting zero tolerance can work, by the wayóby saying it would work with "infinite" prison space. You are so missing the nuance here. We will never have "infinite" prison space. Doh.
Posted by: ladd on May 19, 05 | 12:01 pm
PBR, I think you are totally wrong in your interpretation of the phrase ìzero tolerance" ... would only work with an infinite amount of prison space. He means in fact that it would only work with, literally, an infinite amount of prison space, which is to say that it does not work.
How much reading and research have you done on policing styles and their long term effectiveness? Are you really qualified to understand what Community Policing is, and what Zero Tolerance means? The long term effects they have on their communities?
Also, do you really think that spending money on prisons is the best way to help the community over the next 50 years or so? Are there other ways to spend money that might also help reduce crime over the long haul, and make Jackson a better place to live?
Speaking of prison space: a young man tried to kill JPD cops during his escape from a routine traffic stop in West Jackson yesterday.
My favorite quote from the below-linked article: "McGregory also was arrested in 2002 for receiving stolen property and possession of marijuana, but never served jail time, records show."
I wonder why he never served any jail time? Lack of space, perhaps? What if he had succeeded in his earnest efforts to kill one or more cops yesterday?
Among other interesting issues raised here, let me ask the posters here: What gun control laws will keep a black-market 9mm pistol with the serial number filed off of it out of the hands of this individual?
I am also interested to see the origin of the SKS rifle that he also used to shoot at the JPD cops.
http://clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050519/NEWS01/505190387/1002
I'm not missing anything. That is your conclusion, as always.
We don't need infinite space. Only enough where supply is sufficient to meet the demands of Hinds County law enforcement agencies. Jackson is only 179,000 people, and shrinking, Hinds County 250,000 or so, Mississippi 2.8 million give or take some. It can be mathematically determined how much space is needed on average and during peak periods.
An offense is an offense, minor or major. If the laws of Mississippi call for an arrest then an arrest should be made. I'm not missing any nuance pointing out Moore is in agreement that it can work. Stating that it needs infinite space is spin to discredit an approach he doesn't embrace.
Moore has to discredit zero tolerance with this illusion of needing jail cells from here to Utica because he throttled back JPD's effort to the current capacity -- and even then felons, too many of them repeat, arrested by his officers were all too frequently back on the streets within hours of their booking. Some of them released by Moore's own staff. He is covering his tracks which is exactly what anyone would expect him to do.
Moore made many positive strides at JPD. But he didn't work to force his boss the Mayor, and the people of Jackson and Hinds County, to step up to a solution to the problems of inadequate jail space and a District Attorney whose only excuse for moving as slow as molasses on a cold day is to cry for mo' money. The Chief masked the problem -- he was an enabler. Issue avoidance plain and simple.
Moore should have broken the system. He would have been able to claim that JPD was doing its job and that JPD's job was enforcement but did not extend to providing post-arrest bandwidth downstream. He would have provided the evil corporate ombudsmenless media enough material to go after the rest of the criminal justice system with the same zeal with which they highlighted his faults. Moore would have provided much more aid to Mayor Johnson's campaign and reputation by effectively shining the bright beacon on other links in the chain that are broken, and remain broken today.
Moore didn't push the envelope because Johnson wanted Petterson sheltered. That ends June 7th.
You'll need to share your credentials first Kate. This who is more well read schtick is a waste of time. I'm willing to stipulate we both can read and do read. The only remaining question is can you handle an opinion other than your own?
PBR, I can handle *informed* opinions, especially on something that has serious impact on my city and state. It's not about who can and cant' read. It's about who has researched this topic, which is incredibly important and nuanced. I have not done much, but what I have read tells me that Zero Tolerance is not the panacea you make it out to be.
It's fine if you want to wax eloquent on the virtues of Zero Tolerance. What I don't understand is why you have to make up a whole conspiracy theory that Chief Moore promoted Community Policing, which is a proven and efective crime fighting strategy, as a cover up for Peterson. That's just speculation, and I seriously doubt that you have personal knowledge of the Chief's motives or the Mayor's motives.
If you're so concerned about building jails, then start a group to fight for them. Not sure this was Moore's job in the first place.
And, before anyone puts words into my mouth, just because I'm saying that we don't need *infinite* jail capacity, that doesn't mean that I think that we don't have a problem with jail capacity and the overall criminal processing here.
buck, I'd like to know how many JPrep, JA, St. Joe, St. Andrew's, etc. students and/or college aged graduates of those schools are in jail for being pulled over with a little marijuana and a few stolen DVD's from Best Buy? Not enough of them! Man if we could put every kid who breaks minor laws in jail, especially those pesky rich kids who make the same minor mistakes, listen to the same music, and even congregate in large numbers unsupervised like the poorer children in Jackson who may be considered more likely to become criminals in some peoples eyes - we would have the safest city in the whole world, and curtail their criminal butts from ever being productive citizens! And, god forbid, we let "these" future criminals vote!
Ok, buck before you have a heart attack. I am happy JPD has once again shown an unruly criminal that they are boss. You shoot or try to run over a cop you need to go down ñ period! But, you have fallen victim of the type of rhetoric that the C-L, and the fear mongers want us to believe is the root of these crimes. It. Isn't. Minor. Offenses. That. Cause. Future. Criminals. In fact, we are about to have a mayor who is a strong proponent of helping these troubled youths in other ways besides jail - up to a point! He has limits too, and when it warrants he will send them up the river if need be as seen earlier this week in an article about one of his adopted children. Be thankful this kid is one of the ones being helped! But, not before some type of rehabilitation based on the crime committed. I would hope this courtesy is extended to all our younger folks who may make mistakes that are not life threatening by our upcoming new administration before we decide to just throw them all in jail.
Posted by: tortoise on May 19, 05 | 3:22 pm
I wonder why he never served any jail time? Lack of space, perhaps? What if he had succeeded in his earnest efforts to kill one or more cops yesterday?
Buck, you're making a big jump here. Zero-tolerance/mandatory sentencing policies, especially for young people, are linked directly with high recidivism rates. However, as McMillin points out in this piece, there are alternatives to stuffing people into jail/prison for minor offenses (smoking pot).
PBR, your sarcasm is silly. Obviously, Kate's conclusion is "always" her conclusion, as is yours. Those little asides don't exactly help you be more convincing.
And I don't find your arguments convincing, especially since piles of research say exactly the opposite. And the worst conclusion I believe YOU drew above was your paraphrase based on what Chief Moore said about zero tolerance and "infinite" jail space. You're trying to twist his the meaning out of that statement. Obviously, this will NEVER be infinite jail space, and he is smart enough to know it. So is Sheriff McMillin and Frank Melton (who also tries to keep young people out of jail).
And tortoise is right: minor offenses don't cause future violent criminals. If so, many students in all our schools, including those he mentioned, would be in Parchman by now. However, locking kids up for minor offenses often does lead to serious recividivism, including violent crime. There is plenty of data to draw on if you're interesting in learn more about this.
Posted by: ladd on May 19, 05 | 3:35 pm
Mr. McGregory isn't a FUTURE criminal, rather a PRESENT one. . and a past one as well. Seems he got an early start, I reckon.
Also, I wasn't aware that attempted murder of a police officer, possession of stolen firearms with the serial numbers filed off of them, and receiving stolen property were considered "break[ing] minor laws." Also in his the repertoire of Mr. McGregory is a contempt of court charge, wonder what scrape that resulted from?
I wonder if you would feel differently if one of the JPD officers that Mr. McGregory was trying to murder were your brother, husband, or father? Again, what if his aim had been a little bit better and he had killed one instead of "only" wounding him?
Buck, you're not making sense. Who is saying that those crimes are minor? People are addressing your apparent argument that had this young man gone to jail sooner for a minor offense that he would not have ended up committed major onesóand research does not back you up on that conclusion.
Otherwise, calm the sensationalism. No one here is idiot enough, or cold-hearted enough, to think that attempted murder of a police officer is "minor." You're talking to people here who continually try to defend police against unsubstantiated attacks.
Stop. Making. Crap. Up.
Posted by: ladd on May 19, 05 | 3:40 pm
McGregory also was arrested in 2002 for receiving stolen property and possession of marijuana, but never served jail time, records show.
Was he convicted? If not of course he didn't serve time, as much as some folks probably hate it.
GDI makes a good point. Is there something missing from this news story?
Also, who kept him out of jail if he was convicted?
BTW, is anyone interested in how the police chasing him for 10 miles fits into the policy on police chases and not endangering innocent people's lives???
I, too, want to know the origin of the gun. Always do.
Posted by: ladd on May 19, 05 | 3:46 pm
On the crimes being 'minor,' tortiose's post:
"Man if we could put every kid who breaks minor laws in jail, especially those pesky rich kids who make the same minor mistakes, listen to the same music, and even congregate in large numbers unsupervised like the poorer children in Jackson who may be considered more likely to become criminals in some peoples eyes - we would have the safest city in the whole world, and curtail their criminal butts from ever being productive citizens!"
As for the questions regarding Mr. McGregory's prior scrapes with the law, I don't have any more details than the rather scant ones provided in the C-L article. While that is generally typical of the C-L's product, that article was published only one day after the incident, so there is a possibility that more details will be coming from them later.
Ms. Ladd, your logic in citing unnamed studies in support of the proposition that "Zero-tolerance/mandatory sentencing policies, especially for young people, are linked directly with high recidivism rates" is grossly flawed. Are you saying that the future high recidivism rates in those (hypothetical) individuals is a result of the zero-tolerance/mandatory sentencing policies only? Even viewing your argument in its most favorable light, those policies would be only one of many factors resulting in the high recidivism rates of those individuals.
I. Am. Not. Making. Crap. Up. Rather. Responding. To. A. Prior. Post.
I agree that minor infractions, particularly by a minor, should be handled differently than more serious infractions by a more mature individual. However, I think that Mr. McGregory is an example of a young man who has committed several serious crimes, the real extent of which we do not yet know. The idea that "intervention" or any special treatment is warranted for a guy who tried to kill cops with at least one stolen gun would be clearly ridiculous.
I suspect that a lot of the people we hear about getting arrested for the 10th time (or whatever) are not being indicted. That is, the cases are not being presented to the grand jury (whose fault this is depends on whom you ask - DA says police, police say DA). At this point, 50% tolerance sounds like it would be a vast improvement.
LADD: I, too, want to know the origin of the gun. Always do.
As the article seems to imply that Mr. McGregory retrieved the guns from the interior of his father's tire shop, I suspect the elder Mr. McGregory might receive some inquiries of that sort from the JPD (or the ATF) in the next few days. . .
OK, you're responding to a prior post by tortoise. But I just read it three times and do NOT see tortoise saying anything about the crimes committed THIS WEEK being "minor," as you alleged all emotionally:
Also, I wasn't aware that attempted murder of a police officer, possession of stolen firearms with the serial numbers filed off of them, and receiving stolen property were considered "break[ing] minor laws."
That sounds grossly sensationalized to me, Buck. Tortoise did not say that, nor did I. Again, please try to read the posts before you respond to them. Maybe a couple times just to be sure.
No, my logic is not "grossly flawed." Sorry, Buck, just because you want it to be doesn't mean it is. I know a little about this "zero tolerance" topic because I was lucky enough to be paid decently to study it for six months. I'll dig you out some specific sources when I have time. Right now, we're about to have a staff birthday party. I have two shelves on binders on this topic that include a whole shitload of studies.
If you cared, it's easy enough to find substantiation, or lack thereof, before your sweeping statements *befire* you make them. Then you wouldn't have to accuse other people of saying all sorts of emotional things they did not say to try to cover for the fact that your statements aren't research-based.
Posted by: ladd on May 19, 05 | 4:08 pm
I suspect that a lot of the people we hear about getting arrested for the 10th time (or whatever) are not being indicted. That is, the cases are not being presented to the grand jury (whose fault this is depends on whom you ask - DA says police, police say DA).
It's probably a mixture of both, and has been for a long time. Remember back with the rapes and corruption at the old Juvenile Detention Center. The police were begging D.A. Peters to prosecute the guards who alleged raped the teen girls under their careóand he refused because the girls clearly "consented"!?!?
I can't get out of my head how poorly young people have been treated here historically. If the powerful don't show the effort to prosecute wrongs against them, what kind of message does that send? Crimes like the one this week fall into a larger contextóand there is nothing wrong, and everything right, about trying to understand that context even while you punish them for their wrongs. And the truth is, locking kids up for minor crimes does not prevent major crimes later. That's just not supported.
OK, birthday time. Ciao.
Posted by: ladd on May 19, 05 | 4:14 pm
II can only respond to what is written today in the paper and in the current posts. Maybe it was pounds of weed and thousands of dollars of stolen goods? Maybe, maybe not!? It appeared you took to heart his past indiscretion listed in the article which is "very" minor in comparison to his most current crime. I was only pointing out that we shouldn't get sidetracked by the C-L's insertion of that past offense when it pales in comparison to what he did yesterday. Couple to that, PBR and the call for more jail space to implement Zero-Tolerance, I think we can all see the point in my argument. I, don't want to see anyone become the victim of a gun crime in any circumstance. But, I am not going to put the two crimes in the same category.
Posted by: tortoise on May 19, 05 | 4:14 pm
And you shouldn't, Tortoise. It doesn't help anything.
Posted by: ladd on May 19, 05 | 4:15 pm
*before* (not *befire* although that seems like a cool word)
Posted by: ladd on May 19, 05 | 4:16 pm
"As the article seems to imply that Mr. McGregory retrieved the guns from the interior of his father's tire shop, I suspect the elder Mr. McGregory might receive some inquiries of that sort from the JPD (or the ATF) in the next few days. . .
Buck, if it makes you feel better, I too thought the fact that he went to his fathers shop and got the guns was very fishy. In fact, "chop shop" popped into my mind when I read his dad had a "car repair" shop. So, we all can jump to conclusions; but, that doesn't mean we can't filter through what is reported to us, and why it may or may not be relevant to the story and the criminal at hand.
Posted by: tortoise on May 19, 05 | 4:20 pm
I don't know the depth of the problem of arrests not translating into indictments - although it appears to be quite large - but when people are arrested over and over again with no consequences other than a night in jail and the bail bond fee, the City is delivering a message that crime will be tolerated. That is what I find most frustrating about the state of affairs re: the criminal justice system in Jackson right now.
Is it the city or the county? Are criminals arrested in Clinton, Terry or Utica detained and jailed at a higher rate then Jackson criminals - percentage wise? You raise a good question winston; but, it may not be a local as it appears. Anyone got any stats?
Posted by: tortoise on May 19, 05 | 4:35 pm
Sigh, once again, the beginning part of tortoise's response to my initial post: Man if we could put every kid who breaks minor laws in jail . . ."
My initial post was about Mr. McGregory, who recently committed several serious crimes. Tortoise's post was in response to the article I posted. If Tortoise's post was not referencing the crimes cited in the article about Mr. McGregory. . then. . WTF was Tortoise talking about???
As for yourflawed logic and your "study:" do you bring the same neutrality displayed in your journalism to your "study" on the causes of criminal behavior? Very unbiased, reliable research, no doubt.
Again, recidivism rates are the result of many factors, "zero-tolerance" policies being only one of many possibilities.
It is a frustrating state of affairs, and one that does not lend itself to easy answers. It's interesting that there's been so much noise about the rumours about cooked statistics, and meanwhile this problem of the people who are arrested don't seem to get properly processed just goes on and on and on and on. It did come up during the DA's race, but has not really surfaced since then - at least not that I've seen. (And since I live in my own little bubble, I could easily have missed a big dust up, and if I'm wrong, then I apologize). But the issue of moving people through the process in a legal, fair, and transparent way seems to be one of the major sticking points to reducing crime in Jackson.
And, I have to go DRINK! now, since I've agreed with winston3, *and* laughed out loud at his "50% tolerance" comment.
Kate, it did come up two years ago and has not been addressed since then as far as I know. It would be very interesting if someone would investigate it. But that is the point where the system appears to be broken. Or the most broken.
Oh, and discussing zero tolerance, given the current state of affairs, does seem rather laughable.
Hunh? Buck, buddy, pal... I was being tongue in cheek with my "man if we could..." statement in response to your "favorite" quote you referenced from the Ledge in you post. You obviously saw his earlier transgression as a "gateway" to his current crime, and that maybe if he had been taken off the street for marijuana possession and petty theft then he may not of had a chance to harm an officer. The logic is there that that may be true; but, I think we shouldn't fall prey to the Ledge trying to drum up the "anti-effective policing" argument by the JPD when they insert these facts that will only come into play once he is in front of a judge. It does nothing to help curb our crime problem and our fears by pointing out crimes that many of our younger people get away with everyday without jail time in some hopes of giving equal weight to both crimes.
Posted by: tortoise on May 19, 05 | 4:53 pm
Actually, I think if there were some context around earlier arrests and such, then it would be very informative and relevant to the article. As has been pointed out the statement that the guy was arrested but never served time is, by itself, not at all useful. He may have been wrongfully arrested, the JPD may have screwed up somewhere on evidence or procedure, the DA's office may have screwed up, it could have been about lack of jail space, it could have been any number of things.
If there were an ongoing effort to take a look at the whole process, and then place these anecdotes within that context - then you have a reason to include that type of detail.
But as it stands, we have no friggin' clue why the guy never served time, and so we go round and round with each other about it.
To me, that's got to be part of this call for "Zero (or at least 50%!) Tolerance) rallying cry. Or any other effort at making the city safer. This stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum.
Sighhhhh. Again, Buck, you need to read.
You wrote: "I wonder why he never served any jail time? Lack of space, perhaps?"
Then, tortoise wrote: "Man if we could put every kid who breaks minor laws in jail, especially those pesky rich kids who make the same minor mistakes, listen to the same music, ..."
Then you wrote back: "Also, I wasn't aware that attempted murder of a police officer, possession of stolen firearms with the serial numbers filed off of them, and receiving stolen property were considered "break[ing] minor laws."
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you first asking why he had not previously been put in jail for "receiving stolen property"óbeing that the other crimes are the current ones that just came to police's attention???
I really don't think you can then turn around and dramatically accuse tortoise of saying that, therefore, "attempted murder" is "minor." That's bait and switch, and some real bad logic. He just didn't say it, and you insult him and the rest of us by trying to illogically boil his statement into such an accusation. Do that again, and I'll ask you to leave.
Again, recidivism rates are the result of many factors, "zero-tolerance" policies being only one of many possibilities.
Duh. Obviously this is true, Buck. Your logical leaps amaze me on a regular basis. How can you take my saying that ZT-type policies are closely connected to recividivism and magically turn that into my saying that other factors do not affect recividivism? One could drive a truck through this fallacy. Please think before you type, if you are going to try to turn someone's statement completely around. It only calls your logic into question to do that.
On many topics, Buck, you come across very smart, but on anything to do with young blacks committing crime, you simply seem blinded by emotion. And that doesn't help anything. I've said this before, but I'll try it again. I'm not going to discuss crime with you again. Your fallacies on the topic make me dizzy. I'm bowing out. Otherwise, please do not continue to twist people's words into something ridiculous and dramatic such as they are trying to say attempted murder is "minor." I will suspend your account next time I see that. It's offensive.
Posted by: ladd on May 19, 05 | 5:15 pm
Oh, and discussing zero tolerance, given the current state of affairs, does seem rather laughable.
I'm agreeing with Winston, too, on this one. It doesn't make sense to drum up the idea of "zero tolerance" when community policing is working so well in the community. We need to continue on a path that is working and make it work better. That, of course, means identifying problems that exist in the system and fixing them. But it doesn't mean switching course and suddenly adopting a policy of filling jail space we don't have with minor offenders. Many states have already figured out the folly in such a strategy.
Posted by: ladd on May 19, 05 | 5:22 pm
LADD: "Your fallacies on the topic make me dizzy."
Coming from someone who thinks that everyone who agrees with her is "smart" and that everyone who disagrees with her lacks "reading comprehension" or does not understand "nuance," I'll take that as a compliment.
As for my alleged interest in "young blacks committing crime," I assure you that I would have taken no more favorable view of Mr. McGregory had he been white, red, yellow, or any combination thereof.
Coming from someone who thinks that everyone who agrees with her is "smart" and that everyone who disagrees with her lacks "reading comprehension" or does not understand "nuance," I'll take that as a compliment.
Buck, this is bullshit, and it's trying to deflect an important point. I do not accuse anyone who disagrees me of bad reading comprehensionóthere are plenty of people who disagree intelligently and do not twist someone's words into unrecognizable form to try to make a point that doesn't make sense. (As you just did several times above.) The words are there. You twisted them into someone weird and emotional to try to score a point that doesn't make sense. It's that simple. It has little to do with whether I agree with you.
As for my alleged interest in "young blacks committing crime," I assure you that I would have taken no more favorable view of Mr. McGregory had he been white, red, yellow, or any combination thereof.
I will admit I have only anecdotal evidence on this pointówhat you have posted on the blog and your apparent obsession with hip-hop and crimes committed by those who listen to it. It's your blogging history here, not mine. However, it does tell me, albeit anecdotally, that you are not going to be very compelling to talk to about issues like this, so I am going to try to abstain.
However, I did mean the point about twisting people's words so dramatically into saying they think "attempted murder" is "minor." Don't do it again.
Posted by: ladd on May 19, 05 | 5:47 pm
To quote the late and great Sam Cook, "I don't know much about history, and I don't know much biology." And I don't really know what Donna and Buck is debating. All I know is that, as usual, Donna is right, and Buck is wrong. Smile. As one of my clent's once told the circuit judge, "I need to see a doctor, I'm probably insane, I must be insane, who in their right mind would shoot at the police."
Rap is an amazing phenomenon. It has brought more non-adults of various races together than anything I know of. It has scared country music into mini-oblivion, beat up R&B, put Rock in the hospital, killed Reggae (the old style), catapulted Jazz onto life-support, and has run Pop into Schizophrenia. Yet, people think Motown really changed music. I and my friends predicted (damn near prayed) it would last 3 or 4 years and die. The next thing we knew the music industry was giving grammies for it. We knew then we were in for a big change in music. Rap, in part, is the young people's war against racism, systematic and adult hypocrisy, classism and poverty. In any war there will be casualties. We must do what we can to give rap an ameliorative vision since we can't stop it. Some of it is really good. "Only love can conquer hate," said so eloquently by Marvin Gaye in "What's Going On."
That's why I adore you, Ray. OK, I'm biased. ;-) And it's only one reason.
Posted by: ladd on May 20, 05 | 10:30 am
Tortise I would think "pesky" rich kids (define "pesky" please) should serve the exact same sentences as (presumably non-"Pesky"?) poor kids should. The law should look past money, class, and race.
P.S. Who buys DVDs anymore?? I thought everyone just pirates it off the internet. Plus Best Buy sux, if you dont pay their Warranty Tax of like 20% then you are S.O.L. if your item breaks like 3.2 seconds after you walk out of the store. LOL
Adjective: pesky (peskier,peskiest) peskee
Causing irritation or annoyance
"a pesky mosquito"
- annoying, bothersome, galling, irritating, nettlesome, pestering, pestiferous, plaguy, plaguey, teasing, vexatious, vexing
See also: disagreeable
Like people who pirate movies off the internet!
At what point are some of these pesky bloggers going to see my pesky point that having been busted for a pesky charge, like marijuana possession and receiving stolen property (he didn't even steal it, i guess, but peskier then marijauna possession), doesn't mean you are destined to become the next Scarface! As I satirically pointed out (being pesky some may say), the ledge wanted to (be pesky) sensationalize the story by pointing out this guys prior arrest. Kind of pesky of them isn't it? If that was the case then there are a lot of pesky rich (and not rich) kids who are guilty of the same pesky thing who never end up in jail much less exchanging gunfire with the police one day when they get older and peskier!
Raise your hand if you were ever pesky as a youth. Now raise your hand if you ended up in a shoot-out with police sometime after that. Hmmm?
Posted by: tortoise on May 26, 05 | 4:38 pm
I think you're making your pesky point quite well, tortoise. Feeling a bit pesky, eh?
Truthfully, I'm still pesky on occasion. ;-)
Posted by: ladd on May 26, 05 | 4:48 pm
BTW, boo hiss on pirating movies, music or anything else. That's theft, and should be treated the same as breaking into someone's home or store and stealing their sh*t, IMHO. OK, add an extra charge for breaking and entering, but theft is theft, no matter who does it.
Posted by: ladd on May 26, 05 | 4:50 pm
Big difference in stealing DVDs and shooting it out with the cops. One (Rich kids with DVDs) is admittedly pesky. Especially the ones who love to yell "You know who my dad is?" to the cops. The other is extremely dangerous, antisocial and of a terroristic nature.
I am being pesky and I enjoy everyone's blogging whether pesky or not. Being pesky can be good! LOL!
We would have never heard of this guy had he not shot the cop; but, he did and now he will pay the price. Good! If the C-L had listed other violent crimes in his past that would be better, and would have helped establish a pattern that relates to the crime. The listed prior offense is nothing that a number of people, including elected officials, have been guilty of in their lifetime. That's all.
Sorry for the satire MAllen, sorry for the dis on rich kids, and sorry that I have now gotten into the semantics of the word pesky, Jacksun. If I wanted to blog somewhere where everyone agreed or just called each other names I wouldn't be here. It is good to get a little pesky when you write ñ it adds to or detracts from the passion in your argument.
Posted by: tortoise on May 26, 05 | 5:38 pm
Big difference in stealing DVDs and shooting it out with the cops
This is exactly the point tortoise was originally making, I think, in response to the folks trying to maintain that this young man wouldn't have shot at cops had he been jailed longer for the lesser crimes. YOu came in on this one late, Jacksun, but I believe it's in response to the peanut gallery that starts inevitably whining about the "revolving door" whenever the Ledge points out that a young person had committed a minor crime in the past and aren't still rotting in jail for it. The point is not apologistóit is that the crime-hawks aren't willing to actually talk about what could make a difference for these kids.
That is, tortoise was satirically exposing hypocrisy, and good for him.
Posted by: ladd on May 26, 05 | 6:02 pm
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