Shoot to Kill-- Store Clerk Shoots Robber

Queen, didn't he chase the guy outside and shoot him in his truck? And it sounds like the guy wasn't armed.

We can't have a civilized society if people going around shooting each other for taking stuff. Yes, charge them and send them to jail. But shooting them? It's absurd.

It's like hanging someone for stealing a horse in the old days. Or your teenager goes through a shoplifting stage, and the store owner can kill him for it.

We can't condone this kind of over-reaction, and it's happening all around us. Someone running firing down the street at someone who tried to break into his car -- his CAR -- is going to kill someone in the community. You watch.

The problem with shooting people except in cases to save lives is that you may overstep the boundaries of the law. Too few people learn the law before they start trying to execute it to perfection. Clearly, it's wrong, morally and likely legally, to follow a man down the street and shoot him for taking a beer. I wouldn't shoot or kill a man over someone else's beer or mines. But I don't drank.

Well, Dudley, at least we have some of that crime deterrence here that you lauds. If the man is indeed dead he won't steal another beer.

Yes, it seems clear that many Mississippians already don't know what they can do under the Castle Doctrine. Not that it's a good law, but they don't know its legal limitations, regardless.

Chasing a guy who stole beer outside and killing him is just remarkable. If he did it, it's good he was arrested. And I sure don't want to live in a world, or a country, where that is legal.

I heard that he did run after the guy, however that wasn't in the article I read. I personally think if the guy was out of the store, he could have just called the cops. I mean, now he's facing time for a case of beer. That really has to suck!

Do you think the clerk was thinking that the Shoot to Kill law would save him? I mean it seems like so much time went by to where he could have acted in a different manner. I'm concerned that our society will begin to use this law as an excuse to just kill people. In other words take the law into their own hands.

He probably wasn't thinking, which is his problem. Defending yourself is one thing; stopping a shoplifter is another.

Yes, Iron, shooting an unarmed shoplifter is murder.

I think the store owner went way too far with his actions. It's one thing if the thief was threatening the owner and his customers, but the guy was walking away and, by all indications, was unarmed. A case is beer is, what, $10? So the thief was killed over $10? Of course, I've heard of people being killed over things even less.

I'm willing to bet, though, that the store owner will not be indicted.

The law says you must "have reasonably feared imminent death or great bodily harm." An unarmed man stealing a case of beer and driving away shouldn't have made the store owner afraid he was going to be killed or even hurt. Sure, it would make you mad, but you can't chase a car down and kill somebody for shoplifting. That is murder.

I suppose the greater problem here is the crime-ridden environment we have in this City. The store owner was probably operating off of the premise of "A Stitch in Time, Saves" MMM-INE.

I agree that the penalty for stealing a case of beer was drastic; however, I hear stories about theives coming into businesses and taking weeks of profit on a daily basis. This man's behavior is best described as the cup that ran over.

Charles Evers, last week, gave a command to his workers to "shoot to kill" and this too could have been another loss of life/lives.

The Indian business community has experienced several deaths and many injuries at the hands of "robbers" over the past few years.

There is an old saying that goes: If you put yourself in harm's way, you will be harmed. We have a lot of work to do with our young people.

Justjess, you do make a good point. But it brings to mind another point of interest. Are people now so fed up with crime that we are policing ourselves instead of allowing the police to do their jobs? If that is the case, surely that's understandable since nothing is being done to protect the small business man in the general scheme of things.

I dont' think the man was trying to KILL the robber. I personally think he was pissed off and thought he'd scare the criminal by shooting "at" him. Unfortunately he shot and killed him. Is there any chance that this could be considered accidental homicide? Is murder fair? And Donna, I get your point, the guy was leaving, he was unarmed....yes, this is true. One second longer of thought and this man's life could have been saved. But as JJ mentioned, the Indian community in our city has been left without hope for safety for a very long time. This was bound to happen. It's unfortunate and not an exact science by far. This law will need some stipulations, some if's and's and but's, I would think. What if the guy "thought" the man was armed? It still doesn't justify him chasing the man out the store with the gun, I know....I guess I'm just wondering what would happen if the guy had not killed the man. What would be happening in this case if he shot him and the man didn't die?

...thought he'd scare the criminal by shooting "at" him. Unfortunately he shot and killed him. ...

He shot him more than once. I really doubt he was trying to shoot "at" him. He was trying to shoot him. Period.

We can't go around killing every petty thief or anybody that just pisses us off. The only time it is ok, by law, is when you think you are about to be killed yourself. The dude was leaving when he was killed, not threatening the store owner.

I stop at that store regularly. As a matter of fact, I stopped there yesterday morning. Sarbrinder and his wife practically live in that store and are probably the nicest, convenience store clerks I've encountered (much friendlier than most in my own 'hood). Always a friendly hello, how are you, etc. They also basically spend their days caged behind glass/plastic to protect them from violence and/or robbery just to make a living.

We always think of victims of murder and rape --especially those that retaliate in some manner... When it comes to Sarbrinder's case, he has witnessed his profits and livelihood walk out the door through robberies and shoplifting far more often than he could count (I'm sure). This man and his family have most likely been "victimized" on a daily basis. Hell, I even watched someone shoplift while I was in his store one morning!

I can easily fathom how Castle Doctrine, plus angst, and this possibly being a second or third visit from the shoplifter could turn this into a volatile situation. Factor in Sarbrinder's wife often being alone in the store and having dangerous situations presented to her weekly and I can truly see where a man might momentarily snap and feel overwhelmed by the consistent victimization, theft, and demoralization.

I'm on the fence on this one. It's easy to say he should not have shot a man over beer. It's really easy if you simply look at that one fact. But, are there other possible facts that few ponder: this being a common occurrence with this particular individual; the consistent theft the owners experienced; the feeling of victimization caused by your own property being stolen daily...

There's so much more to this than a man shoots another man. It's far from being that simple from where I sit. This was most likely a culmination of events that ended in an unintended/deadly climax.

Hard-working people are becoming dangerously fed up with the criminals in Jackson. They are tired of being robbed. Tired of being scared. Tired of their families never feeling safe. Tired of hearing gun shots. Tired of replacing and repairing their property. Tired of being victimized. It's not one or two bad apples... It's a growing culture of disrespect and disregard that I haven't seen anywhere else. Cocky kids. Disrespectful adults. Ignorance all around.

I think more reports like this are going to be in the news as the economy continues to slide and people can't deal with the fruits of their labor being snatched from them while JPD's hands are tied or unwilling to help... Now, people are working much harder to cover their basic needs and that will certainly influence their reactions to being victimized.

Okay Tre...I get it.

I'm on the fence on this too. I missed the part that he shot repeatedly. That's alarming to think this guy ran out the store trying to kill the man over a case of beer. WOW!

Kaust. I understand all you've stated. I'd be surprised too if he got indicted and shocked if he got convicted of murder considering the Castle Doctrine and times in which we live. He may get charged with something less than murder if the facts support it and he may get let go altogether. This may be the case that helps define the so-called Castle Doctrine.

However, no matter the law, when you choose to live and work in certain areas to receive certain benefits from certain people, which you may or may not like or respect, you've got consider these factors. In other words, you have to consider the situation in which you live or placed yourself, no matter the law or your blind feelings about your personal situation.

I'd be interested to know whether the killer regrets the killing. If he regrets it then he made a decision that didn't suit his morality or situation. I'm not talking about whether he regrets the charges, but instead whether he regrets taking a life thereby placing himself in a situation that could have been avoided.

If the killer doesn't regret the killing then I say he did what he wanted to do and now we'll wait to see if he followed the law perfectly. If he violated the law in his rage, frustration, hatred, fight for survial or whatever it was then he should suffer the consequences according to the law and prosecutorial system. Our feelings and personal situations aren't valid excuses for not knowing the law, misinterpreting it, or excusing it.

Guys, I'm missing the reason why it's important if he regrets it. The damage is done by his own fault....so even if he regrets it, what does that mean?

It's one thing if he ran out the store shooting in the air to let off steam and to make a statement to the rest of the would be robbers in that community. But it's something totally different to run out the store, aim, and shoot several times with the intent to kill.

I'd be more interested in knowing what his mindstate was at the time, than whether he regrets it afterwards. Was he trying to kill this man? Was he, in his mind, protecting himself? Or, was he just frustrated, felt violated and in anger decided to shoot this man hoping that he'd be able to defend his actions by saying he was being rob and felt his life was in danger.

Are there any witnesses? Were any other people in the store?

Regret is a personal matter to me because I cherish freedom, movement, self control and peace. Regret may not matter very much from a legal standpoint, but if you cherish these things one bad act can take them all away and render you unavailable to your wife, children, lifestyle, et al.

Folks, I was just talking to Chief McMillin on a different topic, and he brought up this incident. He is concerned that people think that the Castle Doctrine gives them the right to kill someone who is shoplifting and unarmed. And he is concerned that these kinds of incidents will keep happening if people don't get educated about the law -- and what it is intended to do, which is not give you the right to shoot someone who tries to steal from you.

It is vital to understand that it's there for people to use force to protect themselves from harm -- not because someone steals beer from them. We need to make sure people talk about this and start understanding it. Pass the word to everyone you know. Apparently a lot of people are confused.

That being the case then the shooter need not walk free. This guy should serve as an example. There is no better opportunity to educate than this. Obviously people are not understanding the castle doctrine and if this guy walks away from this, it'll only get worse.

This case reminds me of the case where a man in Houston shot and killed two men who were breaking into his neighbor's house. He was on the phone with 911 and the 911 operator told him to not to go outside, but he took the initiative to go over there and shoot them. Eventually the man was not indicted.

I am with kaust on this one! I mean, how much more can we take of people doing stupid sh*t!? I mean if you are 36 years old - what is your reasoning for steeling a case of beer! For the record I am a black male, 33 years young, not republican or democrat! I am a common-sensorcrat!

I am just fed up with seeing young black males, robbing stores, banks and breaking in to homes, especially in a state such as Mississippi - where every black man is a suspect - where we are perpetrating 90% of these kind of crimes! You would think a common sense factor would have kicked in by now!?

You know why I don't sell drugs, deal with prostitutes, rob, steal or kill, yet alone even own a gun - because I don't want to give some cushioned red neck in Madison or yet any little cushioned white suburb in Mississippi, have the opportunity to read about me in the paper or on TV and say, "hmmmm...another one does a crime today, what else is new!"

So when this guy got shot, it just made me think of where we(black people) are at in the state of Mississippi. Granted discrimination still exists - but the opportunity, and let me repeat - the "opportunity" is out there to better yourself, to where you don't have to steal a case of beer, if you want to have a drink with your boys - after a long day of WORK.

I am sorry it has gotten' to this point, but common sense would have told him to pay for it, but he was a victim of "fed-up-ness!"

It's still murder to shoot an unarmed person for shoplifting. There is simply no justification.

I don't know that anyone here supports what the so-called victin did - stole beer. A shot in the ass or a beatdown would have suited me better.

I'm not convinced still that we're necessarily any more criminally inclined than any other race of people. Yet it appears we commit and get caught more than anyone else for certain kinds of crime.

kaust-
I understand what you are saying; BUT, even if you are a nice guy, you can't kill people who steal from you. I know it sucks that he works seven days a week behind protective glass while watching people steal. Still doesn't give you the right to kill people. According to the law, you have to feel like you are going to be killed before you can kill somebody on your property. It doesn't matter if you witnessed customers stealing from you every day for a year, then one set you off. You can't kill him. You also can't handcuff him and keep him in a cage in your attic. That's what the police and the justice system are for. I don't believe in vigilante justice.

I mean murder is murder. But let me ask this question!? If a woman is continually taking a beat down from a man - is she justified in killing him?

I think with this clerk - he probably just got fed up from the treatment of people at that store. Arab/Indian and black relations are not good. Period, I don't care if it is New York, Chicago, Texas or Florida - you can go to any black neighborhood across this country and you will see a gas station or corner grocery ran by Sikhs, Sudanese(Arabs), Hindus - I see how these people are treated by my own people, especially by undereducated blacks. If you take a poor black person and pit them against a Arab or Indian person behind a counter, the treatment can be down right harsh!

So you take that abuse for so long, there will be a breakin' point and this is proof in the pudding!

I am sorry Donna - but this is ineviatble due to the business relationship between foreign business owners who do business in the black community.

I am not saying it is right, but I can understand why the guy did it!

There are people looking for excuses to shoot people. Why look for an excuse, if you really feel inclined to shoot somebody, just do it and face the consequences. Otherwise, realize we can't have a civilized society if we're allowed to shhot people we personally think deserve it. After all if we could do this, we wouldn't likely have any congressmen or other leaders.

Baquan2000 do you beleive these people always, or by and large, treat the members of the black community with the same respect and consideration as they treat whites and themselves? Do you not think the disrespect goes both ways?

Walt - desperate times call for desperate measures! We are on our 45th homicide for the year in area of 450,000 people! Toronto Canada has 2 million residence! Do you know how many murders they had last year!? 2! Two people!

So what is going on? There are two sides to this coin! You have people who are convinced they are going to commit a crime and those who are going to be victims of crime!? Now the persons that are committing the crimes are not worried about the outcome of the crime they may be getting ready to commit - so already the law and order equation was thrown out the minute of conception!

Now if Jackson was looking like Toronto, Canada in the crime stastics area - then I would have said this shooting was a bit excessive! Now think about it my good friend?

Comparing this to domestic violence is insane! If the store owner were "taking a beat down," then it probably would have been ok for him to shoot the thief. IThe law says if there is "reasonably feared imminent death or great bodily harm" then you can use deadly force. It doesn't say anything about being fed up.

I'll say this again: It doesn't matter if you are fed up. It doesn't matter if you witness people stealing from you every day. It doesn't matter if you don't like a certain race of people. YOU CAN'T KILL PEOPLE!

I know some say that they understand why he did it. I hope these people also understand why the store owner should be punished for murdering somebody.

Baquan, you're mixing up your crimes. The one we're talking about here is no way self-defense. And you seem to forget that the shooting of the beer-stealer was a homicide, and adds to those figures. It's just absurd to think that chasing petty thieves down and shooting them repeatedly is going to, er, lower crime. It, er, raises crime, and the worst kind.

And before long, an innocent bystander is going to be killed by this Wild, Wild West crap.

Can you even imagine if this had been a drunk white frat boy who grabbed the beer and ran? And then got shot? We'd be having a different conversation now, if so.

However, this is the problem with our law as it is. People are ignorant about what it really says and thinks they can go around blowing away anybody you wrongs them. That's ignorance in the worst kind of way.

Oh, and comparing it to domestic violence is insulting to abuse victims, and a logical fallacy to boot.

I still wouldn't have shot the fellow becuase I wouldn have risked killing him or losing my freedom, peace of mind and ability to control my destiny. Fine, he killed the guy. If his ass goes to prison, I won't feel sorry for him at all.

What about the mutual disrespect matter from both communities? I don't know that Canada is ever a fair comparison for us.

Why not shoot the businessmen who commit white collar or other business crimes on other people, the government, and society. The same devilish inclinations of greed, getting something you didn't earn, love of theivery, etc. make them commit crimes against humanity as well.

You see, no matter the popular report, I'm unconvinced we're any worse than most other people. You have allowed the mass media or popular culture to define for you who is bad and who isn't. Don't get me wrong. I'm sick of all this crime too. Business men cheating. Republicans screwing America and the world. And Democrats letting them. And on and on to the break of dawn.

Exactly. Also, if this guy gets away with this, I'd be more afraid of gun-wielding vigilantes than I would be of beer-stealing petty thieves.

The last part was comedy or was it?

To Donna my mother was one of those who were abused, so I made the comparison in the sake of someone's mental state. So if you guys took that as a slap to people who have been physically abused - well then you need to ask the question to the person who made the comment.

Why isn't Canada a fair comparison? Are they above or below us in cultural standards and socialization!?

All I am doing is saying, I can understand why this guy shot the man! I have given you guys examples of situations.

Another thing - the mutual disrespect facter, I know the Sikhs, Hindu's, and other Arabs that run stores in black communities dish out rude behavior. But we have to ask this question - why keep shopping there and then what are we doing on our part inorder to receive good service!?

I know I give everyone the benefit of the doubt. another thing, I do let media and other avenues of statistics give me somewhat some direction on making my point, but as far as shaping my beliefs, I let my life lessons and travles do that - so on that you are way off.

I am a black man, that attended a black university, I am in two black male dominated fraternal organizations - and Donna if a white boy got shot for doing the same thing - I would be saying he got what he deserved as well!

Look once again - dude shot the man - it isn't right he will probably get a serious sentence, to show other store owners that you can't do that. I won't lose any sleep if he does get a long sentence, but I won't be upset if he doesn't either.

Donna to say I had a logical fallacy - is close to calling me stupid and that my view doesn't matter. I dind't think you guys were capable of that over here. I would usually hear something like that on clarionledger.com from one of them good ol' boys!?

Just playing my role to make us think, Baquan. The mass media, popular culture, subliminal suggestions, mis-education and so on have affected/effected/infected us all to some degree. I try to be a dissenter or dissident because I don't trust them.

If we looked upon business people in a true light we'd be shocked. Of course, we won't ever do this because it touches on the fabric and core of the capitalistic system which too many of us put before the Almighty. Who is worse the guy who steals millions or the one who stole a beer. Which one would you shoot? I'd shoot the soma_____ who robbed us of millions.

But we ain't supposed to shoot people and I don't want to lose my freedoms.

I think the part that is really killing me is that - we are justifying one wrong, but not the other!? Whether it is from the store clerk shooting and killing someone; or some john doe going in and stealing something.

To me both sides could have been avoided; but who was going to be responible for backing down - the guy that stolen the beer or the guy with the guy!?

That is where you problem is today, people are tired of backing down.

Both were wrong in my opinion.

:-) I wanted to know what everyone thinks about this. I personally agree with Tre. This situation is being stretched all kinds of ways when the bottom line here is simple. The guy had NO reason to shoot this man who stole beer from the store (was he even the store owner?). And it's a ridiculous for someone to loose their life over a couple of bottles of beer. We dont' know what the shooter was going through. But we do know the end result.

If it is not dealt with in this very case, it will lead to more and more of this behavior- the Wild Wild West Crap as Donna put it. So, it does need to be addressed because there are people out there who think this law means they can kill at will pretty much...and as McMillian has stated, that is not the law and they will serve time. I just think if he doesn't go to jail for this it will be a horrible mistake. Even if he gets a lesser charge...he has to do some time or we will be facing some terrible times in these streets. I bet some people went and purchased guns TODAY after this. Preparing to take a life - just in case....NOT GOOD PEOPLE....not good.

baquan2000 thanks for your posts. I appreciate your opinion and the fact that you voiced them. Peace

well we can agree on that. I mean just imagine, if my man would have chalked it up and paid for it, he would have still been breathing!

If my man with the gun, would have just called the cops - instead of pumping somebody full of bullets, he would be at home with his wife and family!

Like I said though - people don't know how to back down and walk away! Maybe it is becoming the wild west all over again.

People who put their stores in any community know that they are going to loose some stuff to theives. They usually allow for some lost because that is the nature of some people to shoplift or sdteal. That is as old as time. Killing someone over any merchandise is unforgivable. If the person was armed and threatned the clerk sure defend yourself, but when you leave the counter and run out of the store with shooting on your mind you shoud be charged with whatever the law call for for your actions.
Yes if that had been a white person especially a colledge student then the community would be up in arms. The black community would be up in arms if this had been a child and the theif was not beer. I am not surprised no one is outraged because a guy died while stealing beer. if he had stolen food then I think things would have been different. Do not judge this person unless you know him. No one deserves to die for stealing without threatening to kill.

Walt, you said earlier that you be surprised if he got convicted because of the Castle Doctrine, why would this even fall under the Castle Doctrine? Its states you do not have to "retreat" you can stand your ground and defend yourself,your home,your business, and help and aid police officers(when asked) . This was not standing his ground and defending, it was attacking.

Baquan, I don't think anyone here is justifying the thief's actions any more than the store clerk. But the Castle Doctrine doesn't allow someone to gun down an unarmed man, albeit a criminal, once they've fled the premises.

And let's not forget that he was killed OVER A CASE OF BEER!

This kind of Wild Wild West mentality is why the clerk is in hot water right now.

I confess Bubba I haven't read the castle doctrine and as far a s I know it hasn't been tested (limitations, meaning, extent) in court as of yet. I said this because I believe some jurors are capable of letting a person go under the same or similar circumstances because of the misinterpretation or their perception of what the Castle Doctrine is, coupled with the climate of crime that everyone is so sick of. With the right facts the law can be taken advantage of. Consider Frank's guilt in Welsh's house but how the nuances of the law allowed him to escape. Did you notice that I never said in any comment what exactly the Castle Doctrine meant or comprised. I do need to read it specifically, like all of us should, especially those of us who are trigger happy and can't wait to apply it to their personal situations.

Walt, here's a link to it.

http://michie.com/mississippi/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=main-hit-h.htm&2;.0

Donna to say I had a logical fallacy - is close to calling me stupid and that my view doesn't matter.

No, Baquan. Everyone uses logical fallacies, especially when they're clouded by emotion on an issue. So keep your britches on; no is calling you stupid.

Your fallacy was comparing a woman killing a man abusing her to a store owner chasing down an unarmed shoplifter and shooting hims several times.

And I hate to point it out, but it is another fallacy to say that disagreeing with shooting someone for shoplifting is the same thing as justifying the shoplifting. That's putting illogical words in other's heads and mouthes.

Someone who shoplifts should be jailed for shoplifting. As the sheriff-chief said to me earlier today, you don't get the death penalty for shoplifting.

The good news is that Queen's post is making people think about this stuff before they do something really stupid themselves and end up in prison for the rest of their lives because they have no idea what the damn law says.

B, when my car was broken into a few years ago I think I had the same anger this store clerk felt, enough to kill over it.

And it didn't help that JPD detectives basically acted like they didn't give a sh!t about finding the perp which made me angrier.

But in my mind taking a life over replacable property isn't worth the consequences. I TOTALLY understand the desire to "send a message" to the thugs, but I really wonder if adopting a Wild West mentality will yield anything positive long term other than more dead bodies, both the guilty and innocents.

I know Donna doesn't like to hear this one, but I've heard many stories about JPD officers who just take names and fill the reports out, "if you need it for your insurance".

Nothing ever happens.

If an unarmed guy can be shot multiple times and killed for swiping a case of beer, and people see nothing wrong with that, then we need to seriously reexamine our priorities as a culture. This is beginning to sound like Les Miserables.

The gas station in question is not far from where I live, and I've been there a few times to get gas or put air in my tires. Seems kind of surreal now that all of this is happening.

Anyway, when the news first came out that the thief was shot and killed, not thinking it through, I immediately thought, Well, he shouldn't have been stealing in the first place. When I initially heard that the store clerk was being charged with murder, I was like, Why? Now that I know that the thief was unarmed and was in his vehicle when he was shot, I have a better understanding of what he did wrong. After I first heard about the murder, I assumed that the thief was packin' heat and got shot before he got into the SUV. Never assume.

The store clerk overreacted. I can understand why he was frustrated, but he shouldn't have shot him. Also, if he is not convicted in some way for this, there will be an even greater schism between the Indian and Black communities. Blacks will say that he got off because the guy he killed was black.

We are on our 45th homicide for the year in area of 450,000 people! Toronto Canada has 2 million residence! Do you know how many murders they had last year!? 2! Two people!

Does anyone have a way of doing a statistical comparison of Toronto and metro Jackson in terms of economic conditions, law enforcement/citizen ratio, etc.?

Baquan2000 was way off for the number of homicides in Toronto. The number of homicides in Toronto for 2007 was 50, 2006 there were 44, and there have been 40 so far this year.

Here is a chart from the Toronto Police Service website.

http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/statistics/ytd_stats.php

And it seems they are on a record setting pace too.

http://www.torontosun.com/News/TorontoAndGTA/2008/08/17/6478236-sun.html

Iron, the problem is that most people who tell those "stories" are passing them along from other people and can never prove them. It becomes urban legend. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just clearly not as often as rumormongering Jacksonians like to say it does.

It's an interesting place to be a reporter—in a city where exaggeration, and often fabrication, reigns supreme.

And good post, Tom.

Well, in my case I cut out a few people. I know (really!) the person who was there when the Cops did this. If you want to be picky, that only could confirm one instance. It would mean however it could be possible there are more stories out there untold or disbelieved.

...but Tom, in Les Miserables he was hounded for 20 years for a simple charge of shoplifting. ;)

45 murder thus far in a city of less than 200,000. Not good...

Is there an overall increase in crime in North America? Is it related to the economy? I think the world as a whole is more violent.

well Bubba I probably looked at the information wrong:

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/080717/d080717b.htm

that is where I drew my information. But I with Fat Harry on this one - our metro area (about 400,000) - Toronto 2 million+, murder rate is equal! That is not good!

To Donna Ladd - when you say logical fallacy, you really are questioning someone's intelligence, on how they should respond in regards to a social issue!?

My reasoning for making that comparison is people reacting to abusive situations! A store clerk working at the post office works in a very busy station - it is constant and non-stop. People now-a-day take the customer is always right mentality to extreme's - so after a day of being cussed out by 25 customers and dealing with extremely tight deadlines due to the demands of the job. Could be almost as traumatizing as a woman dealing with a 5 minute beatdown in physical confrotation from a so-called boyfriend/husband and may I add now-a-days a possible female love interest, another day another time for that one. What I was saying and comparing was the mental breakdown.

I worked in retail for 12 years - I have had my mother called out her name, because I wouldn't let a lady return a item for the umpteenth time, I have had fights break out in my store, yes indeed! I have had my store shoplifted so many times - to where I have had bad audits almost cost me my job! So think about everything that you encounter for the sake of someone's pleasure.

That is why I said, the mental strain of dealing with repeated harsh disrespectful treatment can make someone snap! Now how you respond to that situation, is clearley and definately up to you. To take the higher road, should be and is always the safest and most graceful way to bow out of a situation as branishing a weapon and using it!

But and you know there is a but! But there has to be some recognition on where this man comes from, and what drove him to that point. Most of these arab and indian storefront owners come from a society to where if you steal - you getting your hands chopped off or they just droppin' them in the street themselves.

We keep saying, "but - it was just a case of beer!" To us - we see the dollar value, to them it is the principal of the situation - wrong is wrong, there is no lesser or greater wrong when it comes to crime.

baquan, I get what you're saying about the mental breakdown. I was in customer service for five years and wanted to snap sometimes, and I dealt with customers through phone and email.

However, could a similar argument be made for the thief? What if he was thinking, "I'm broke and I want some beer, and I'm sick of 'their kind' making money off my people when I know folks who look like me have a harder time getting a business loan, so I'm going to just take this case of beer because they won't miss $10. They probably live in the 'burbs with kids in private school anyway." As sick as that logic is, that could be what drove the man into stealing and losing his life.

The shooter and the thief may both have reasons, but do those reasons justify anything?

LW - my man or woman, I am glad you asked that question!

Exactly - what was it that made my man want to steal the beer in the first place!? I mean what would have been the factor - to keep him from stealing!? What a mis-demeanor or some slap on the wrist! I mean there was nothing stopping him either!?

You said it best, he was probably thinking exactly what you said - they got it made and I don't!

The same logical thinking we are holding this store clerk accountable to, is the same thing that we have to hold my man, that stole the beer, accountable to as well!

because all in all - it is a sad situation all around! I will say this much, I stay off Beasley Road and I go to the Fuel Time and those cats know me, if I am short some change or two them cats let me slide, because they know I am a repeat customer - but I established that with them, by my business and my interaction - hey how you doing, what's going on!

I think that it was one of two things - either there were some bad confrontations between the two guys before or my man was having a bad day and the dude that stole the case of beer - was going to be on the end result of my man's frustrations.

All in all, when stuff like this happens we all really have to check ourselves and see where our priorities are (in referance to stealing a case of beer)- if it was a loaf of bread and some potted meat, I would really probably have an attitude/compassion adjustment on this one! But a stealing a case of beer makes you question, where was this man's mindset at and do you think you can do the same thing and if you can why?

This argument is completely ridiculous. I don't care if the guy stole a case of beer (unarmed) every day for a year and told the cashier his mother is ugly on his way out the door. I don't care if it was a case of beer or a box of Nutty Bars. You can't kill him for it! I don't care how angry and fed up you are, you can't take the law into your own hands, even if you think the police are inadequate. I understand the frustration, but it doesn't justify murder.

I have a problem with road rage. Somebody pulls in front of me or does something stupid on the road every day that pisses me off. Would it be ok if I kill the next person that cuts me off?

And, again, the domestic violence comparison is nuts. You can't compare the murder of an unarmed thief to someone who takes daily beatings and mental and sexual abuse from a person they love. That just doesn't work. I'm not trying to insult your intelligence, but c'mon! That's insane.

No - what is insane is how cut and dry you make it! This is greater than that and this is not as bad as this!

Please - everyday in America, especially in Jackson we ask the question why!? Why did they do this and why did they do that!?

Domestic violence and crime are results of people's state of mind and for me to make the comparison has probably got you scared on actually how close they really are!

After so long of being a victim of something - whether it is harsh treatment from fellow co-workers at a job, or person to person interaction in a retail setting, or in a daily boyfriend/girlfriend - husband/wife - woman/woman - man/man relationship, there are certain "behaviors" that can mentally traumatize or affect somebodies daily outlook or perspective. What may be something minor to you, could be the difference between life and death and how they will react in different situations. Mental duress can be just as bad as a physical threat in situations such as theft, road rage, even cutting in front of somebody in line at a store or @ McDonald's, because that person feels they have been violated in either their physical space or something that they acquired through effort.

That is why I said a few posts back and I gave you the situation! You are trying to tell me that if someone kept coming into your home when you are not there, and keep taking the stuff you worked for - granted if they were only stealing beer, it is what you worked for - that is a violation! Sure turn the other cheek, once - get me again it's my fault - but to keep letting it happen and expect me not react - then you have lost flipped mind and cuss me out at the same time!

Let's just see how you react in that situation - because when someone steals from you - that is a feeling a violation, the emotion that comes over you is overwhelming - because I work for mine, in order not steal - to have the ability to buy what I want!

Now once again I am not saying it is right!

How did Chris Rock say it, " I wouldn't do it, but I can understaaaaaaaaaaand!"

baquan, thanks, and I'm a woman.

Tre, I agree. The murder was unjustified. The shooter and victim were both wrong. No winners here.

We all have pressures. I have a problem with road rage. We all are put in situations where we'd rather slap the crap out of someone at times rather than to take a moment to breathe. However, there is something not clicking to perfection in a person who would take something like road rage or stolen property which doesn't amount to much financially, and shoot someone.

The fact is that sure this guy who robbed the man was wrong...who has said he didn't commit a crime. But the crime DOES NOT fit the punishment he received. There is simply no way to justify this guy being gunned down. I am with Tre on that. I understand your poing baquan, please trust that I do. Black people are frustrated. We are tired. We are struggling....but so are white people....so are indians. Point is, if we go around using frustration as a justification for stealing someone's life then we are setting a precedent that will eventually bring our community to demise. We can not afford that. Shooting should not be an option UNLESS, you are defending yourself from harm, or you are convinced that if you don't shoot, you will die yourself. Otherwise, it is a crime, period.

No one is saying that this store clerk deserved to be robbed or that he was not a victim. What I am saying is that he is NO LONGER a victim. Unfortunately his actions have turned the robber into the victim. And now, he faces murder charges over a simple $10 case of beer. That's what's ridiculous.

I'm glad this is being discussed because there are people out there who are ignorant to what this law states and they need to be educated. I am one of them. I heard an older gentlemen say that the law states (and he said this with much enthusiam and frankness) that if someone walks into my yard, I can shoot him. THAT IS SO NOT WHAT THE LAW STATES. So if someone came into his yard, and he shot them, he is now the criminal and no longer the victim. We have to be careful not to fall into the ignorance and become educated about this.

This does not even come close to falling under the castle doctrine in my opinion. The store owner was never in danager. If the news reports are correct the robber never even threatened him in any way.
I worked in a retail store for 5yrs and we had people shoplift all the time and I was armed everyday, but never once did I ever think about shooting someone because they were shoplifting. We would chase one down every once in while and kick the crap out of them and get our stuff back, but shooting a shoplifter was never even considered. The only reason the I had a gun was to shoot back if armed robber shot first, because most of them can't hit the broad side of a barn anyway.

Queen you are right!

I guess for me to explain my heated-ness over this topic is this! There is no fear in the petty thief, the big murderer, the child rapist, the person that cut someone off ,in 5 o'clock traffic, after a person had a long and trying day at work. Or some snot nose punk, that goes and breaks into the car - you saved up $5,000 to put a down payment on. There is no fear in that dude, that goes to the Krystal, Burger King, and rob them and then shoots a police officer point blank range - and then says I am sorry after the fact!

That's what ticks me off! I never forgot when I was 5 years old, my mother went to 7-Eleven to get us some sodas and snacks from the store. I came out with a 2 cent jolly rancher in my hand - she said how'd you get that and I said "in my hand" - I woke up 5 years later, trying to remember how Menundo got famous! From the day I woke up on forward, I respected the value of other people and businesses property.

I am tired of seeing grown "black men" doing stupid stuff! I am sorry! If he would have stolen that case of beer, and got away with it, what is to say he wouldn't have or what is there to keep him from trying to break into my home or your home, or to go to another store and try to steal something away from there!? You know you can't whoop him for stealing, but for JPD to track him and arrest him for stealing that case of beer - would have been really low on the list of priorities for them! So there is no fear of doing another crime, once you get away with something as minute as that.

I know we cannot have vigilante justice in a democracy such as ours - but how you going to implement the fear that is necessary to maintain law and order, especially with the state and condition we are now as country - spiritualy, finacially, and emotinally!

People have that do what I gotta do mentality - and whether it comes to getting what they want or not being a victim of crime no more, this situation is a reflection of that.

Queen, that was my main worry with the Castle Doctrine law as well--not that it legalizes lynching (it doesn't), but that people who listen to talk radio would come away with the impression that it does, that it would let a grumpy old man pick off 9-year-olds if they take a shortcut through his backyard.

I'm scratching my head over all these folks who seem to think that murdering shoplifters, or anybody else, is a good idea. No wonder the homicide rate is so high, if we live in a part of the country where it's okay to go around shooting people for doing things you don't like.

Do y'all not realize that this is the reason we have 45 homicides? Beefs, turf wars, impulse killings? Person A thinks his girlfriend is cheating on him, so he believes it's okay to murder her and/or the person he thinks she's cheating on him with. Person B has somebody cutting in on his business, so he thinks it's okay to murder him. Person C gets clobbered in a bar fight, so he comes back to murder the guy who did it. These people don't usually just decide they're going to kill somebody. In most cases they have their reasons, too, reasons that justify murder in their own minds.

So is this what we're going to reduce ourselves to? A culture where the only difference between the killers and us is that we haven't been given the right excuse yet?

Re the crime rate: Bad national economy plus Katrina = predictable uptick in crime. Crime isn't a disease; it's a symptom. And the fact that our mayor mismanaged the police department for most of his term probably doesn't help.

"Queen you are right!"

I totally agree with this statement!

Tre - well we can agree to disagree - however I want to pick your brain. What is your demographics?

Myslef: black male, early 30's, rent a apartment, low $40's in salary, college educated, no kids, in a heterosexual relationship for 4 years now - no prior's minus the open container in Madison County and expired tag ( they just cost too much damn money - and they get it when I got it ).

It justs helps understand who I am talking to and understand their angle.

Tom Head - I never said it was a good idea, I just said - I can "see what did" drive him to that point. But did not say it was a good idea.

Then, were do we disagree? I said I understand his frustration, but that doesn't justify killing someone.

okay - then we agree to agree! Well never mind then! my bad! lol!!!!

Baquan, would you understand the store owners frustration if he had chase a 6yr old outside and shot him for stealing a candy bar? That's shoplifting just like the guy snatching and running with a case of beer.

The store owners frustration has nothing to do with this, he chased an unarmed shoplifter outside and shot him over a case of beer. He was not in any form or fashion in danger from the shoplifter.

Mississippi's "stand your ground" law is good, if you read it and know what it means, but for a store owner to think he can shoot a shoplifter, because of it is just plain wrong.

Okay - when have you ever heard of store keeper shooting a child for something such as that!?

We are talking about a grown (36 year old) man! With a get-a-way car!? come on man!?

If this was a 6 year old child, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now!

Like I said and I will say it again, I know it isn't right - but I can understand why he did it!

You don't here of store keepers shooting 6 year olds over candy bars - but this is the 2nd time in weeks a store keeper shot someone over trying to steal a case of beer!

Baquan, this is just for you....listen, I think that you are actually bringing other issues into this one particular issue that may be clouding your judgement. It is irrelevant in most of our minds (here) that the robber was black. There is a general point to be made here which is the crime in which the store clerk outrageously took the position of police officer, judge and jurer in this situation. It would be the same thing if the guy was white, or mixed or indian for that matter. As a matter of fact I am will even venture to say that it may not have even occured if the robber wasn't black.

NOW, you want to talk about the state of the black men in our city.....well black people period don't confine it to just black men. Our personal situations cause us to act out sometimes. I act out. I'm black. But I am not going to go rob a store for beer. That's a crime and it shouldn't be excused. Why? Because it isn't his property, therefore, wrong, immoral and against the law. you are so right in that. But this particular situation doesn't have anything to do with the color of the robber's skin or the money he has, or the fact that he doesn't work, or the fact that he's a beer stealer. The point here is that the store clerk took an extreme action that caused this man his life. What should have happend and likely could have benefited the robber, the clerk and the community is if he had ran outside, took down the car tags, took a picture of the guy with his camera phone, paid particular attention to what he was wearing and his features and REPORTED IT TO THE PROPER AUTHORIES. Yes, you're right again, JPD has failed us so much that we don't put our trust in them to get things done. But putting in a police report with enough details to where THEY don't actually have to work to hard (since they seem to be against that idea) would pretty much make it easier to catch this particular guy. He'd be alive and afforded the opportunity to rehabilitate himself. He could have turned his life around and helped others who rob for beer. Now, unfortunately he doesn't have that opportunity. And, the store clerk (again) is headed to jail....hopefully.

You are making valid points. I get it. Black men need to step their game up and contribute more positively to our society and our community. No arguement there. However, this particular situation really has little to do with the color of the robber's skin as much as it does with the act of murder on the part of the store clerk...

just my 2 cents.

Would someone please prove or disprove this myth that is constantly, constantly heard in the African American community. In fact last night, callers to the David Archie show kept repeating this " These people come over here and they don't have to pay taxes" It's a statement that I have heard a million times but I have no clue if it's true. Somebody please explain - IS THIS TRUE?

lanier, it's not true at all:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/04/AR2006060400965.html

and once again you are right Queen. But you agreed with me a lot more than you disagreed with me.

But I am harder on my people than anyone else, because no else is going to account for my black brothers and sisters more than me! I am proof in all my posting over on clarionledger.com.

Whenever I see a crime such as this and one of us die from trying to commit a crime. It makes me retract to why people like Martin Luther King and Malcom X faught for the civil liberties we enjoy today! I mean we are still held to that field worker branch of the cast system and the only way we will overcome that, is to stop with the senseless petty crimes!

We were fighting in the 50's and 60's to buy items from the places we now rob!? I mean how ludacris is that!? We have black teen's dropping out from the same schools roe vs. wade decision made possible for us to go!

Our color always has something to do with our plight - we owe it to those slaves that crossed the Atlantic, with piss, blood and puke - with no sheets and no blankets, no medical care for 5-6 months - to carry ourselves with some dignity and to propel ourselves forward.

You know what when Asians and Arabs and people that of foreign decent - already come to this country and feel that they are a step ahead of us in the caste system in which we live. By that man stealing that case of beer it doesn't nothing to help our 'cause as a people!

Someone is going to say, "well one black person - should not be held accountable for the whole black race!" Well I am sorry - white, asians, arabs and other non-blacks in Mississippi do it by a fault!

I guess what I am leading to is this, when are we going to realize that we are held to things a whole lot different than other people and we have to be held accountable for our actions and change the way people see us in a different light! The only way that is going to change - is when the levels of education increase , economical/financial stability increase, and criminal contribution percentage decreases drastically!

But you are right in many ways yourself Queen!

Don't know how accurate this is, but I did find this and it says all immigrants do pay taxes.
http://www.immigrationforum.org/documents/TheJourney/MythsandFacts.pdf

I have never heard the Indian immigrants didn't pay taxes, but have heard that the Indian gov't furnished them with low or no intrest loans to buy hotels and stores, but that's probably a myth too.

When I drove by the store this AM, it was relatively more crowded than usual; I pass it every day. It wasn't crowded by protesters but by paying customers. A curious sight...

Baquan2000 - Point taken! And let me just reassure you that I, too, am very hard on my people and I hold us to a very high regard. I expect more from us AND i am working to instill pride and stregnth into every African American I can by my thoughts and actions. THe best way to correct that which has plaqued our community is to simply encourage and educate. It doesn't help to chat and complain...that never works (not saying you are doing that - or anyone else in particular). What works is those of us who "know better" must get out and inform those who don't know, and by offering an alternative to the life they have found themselves stuck in. We can do that by giving them something to work towards and setting an example. If we all, who are inclined, were to do this, that would surely make our community more educated and fill us all with a sense of pride.

I feel you homie!

When I first heard about this, I didn't know the ethnic background of the shooter or the thief that was killed. I just immediately thought that it was wrong for the store owner to kill a shoplifter. Race or nationality has nothing to do with it.

Ditto, Tre!

Hey Queen - I just got finished pulling off my cigarette on that last post I made.

You right again - but we have to discuss it, to put the vibe out there. Because just from the conversation you and me have up here, it carries over to me and my frat brothers and me and my lodge brothers! So we got to discuss it.

Tre - I don't know how old you are, what race you are, what you doing for a living. Until you can tell me more about yourself, then we are going to agree to disagree in regards to race in this situation!

Because it has plenty to do with the situation. Maybe in the undertones - but it definately has a part in this play!

I don't see what difference my job title and skin color makes.

To me, race was not an issue. It could have been any combination or two of the same of any race. Killing an unarmed shoplifter is wrong and the killer should be punished.

I feel like I have said the same thing a hundred times now, so I'll stop.

If it makes you feel any better... I lived in Jackson for 30 of my 35 years. I am white. I am a graphic artist. I have been married for 11 years and have 3 children. I am a progressive liberal. I am Catholic (not a very good one). I am a musician - I play drums with some local blues artists and in a local rock band. What else do you need to know?

Hey I'm willing to discuss and build with any one black or white who wants to come to some sound determination on progression. So name the place and time sir, I'm there!

ooohhhh aaaaaahhhhhh - okay...okay. Point taken! I feel like I am saying the same thing a hundred times myslef as well.

Well Tre - we will have to agree to disagree in regards to the race thing. Because you wouldn't understand my angle, because you may have experienced some of my economic hardships, but you probably have not experienced any of the hardships I have experienced socially due to my color or ethnicity. From black man to white man.

I dig the fact that you are compassionate however in regards to the situation. I want to thank you for paying attention as well. Not too many whites would have even given this a minute of their attention, so I take my hat off to your sir for doing so.

I'm looking for clarification on a couple of things if anyone can help.

#1. Did the store clerk shot the man while he was in the car attempting to drive away?

#2. Do we know how many shots were fired?

#3. Did the robber die instantly from the gun shot?

#4. Were there multiple gun shots or one fatal shot?

#1 According to news reports, yes--after he had entered the SUV, but before he had left the parking lot.

#2 Only that Hawthorne was hit at least twice.

#3 I don't know. I seem to recollect reading somewhere that he was dead at the scene.

#4 According to news reports, there were at least two bullet wounds--one bullet in the head, the other in the shoulder. It is not clear which shot was fired first, nor is it clear if additional shots had been fired that did not hit Hawthorne.

We have black teen's dropping out from the same schools roe vs. wade decision made possible for us to go!

Brown vs. Board of Education

Thank you L.W. - it was in the heat of battle, the abortion thing has been on my mind!

#3 I don't know. I seem to recollect reading somewhere that he was dead at the scene.

He didn't die at the scene. When he got shot, he tried to drive away and ran into a pole. He was taken to UMC and died there.

baquan:
I hope you don't consider this conversation a "battle."

I have definitely experienced (experiencing) economic hardships. I may not have experienced some of your social hardships, but I am aware of it. I also get to hear what idiots say behind your back that think I agree with them because of my skin color. I honestly don't care about color. I have family members that are black and mixed races. They are my family. I am just as offended as you are by the 'n' word. I will never know what it is like to live your life, but I am sympathetic.

I am aware of the issues we still have regarding race. I just don't think it has anything to do with the fact that killing a shoplifter is wrong. A white store owner killing a black shoplifter is wrong. A black store owner killing an Asian shoplifter is wrong. A black store owner killing a black shoplifter is wrong. In all of these cases, the shooter should be punished. As I have said, I understand that he was frustrated... doesn't mean you can kill and get away with it.

Didn't he have security cameras that could have identified the thief? Couldn't he have gotten the license plate number from the truck rather than shooting? With a picture and a plate number, they could have caught the bad guy. He was wrong for stealing, but he didn't deserve to die.

Now, if you want to talk about race relations around here, we can. Maybe start a forum topic. But this topic isn't about that. This topic is about a man (just a man, not "black man") that was murdered by a man (just a man, not an "Indian" man) for stealing beer.

Queen:
About your first question: I heard the shoplifter ran into the gas pumps after he was shot. That tells me that he was attempting to drive away. About the rest of your questions: I heard the same as Tom H.

Yep...L.W. catches everything. :-)

Thanks for the info peeps.

Hey Tre - you are cool with me. I wish it was that simple for me.

But to me I got to put the weight on the brotha - because an asian or indian store owner will pull a gun on black man quicker than they would on somebody else! Albeit right or wrong.

Like I stated before - I lived in New York, Chicago, Cleveland and Miami - I was an airline brat growing up, so we was always moving and I seen stuff like thsi all the time.

As black people we know what we are facing on a daily basis the minute we walk out the door, whether educated or not, rich or poor - the main determining factor for people's behavior towards you - is your skin color. It is a hard pill to swallow but it is the hard core truth.

So say if I wanted to go to any of those arab gas stations over in west jackson, you know they are packing heat and they are waiting for you to do something - just to say I shot me a mutha-f*ck*!?

So that is why I related to the color issue as well in this topic! But what you say is how it should be above the surface and underneath the surface! But I got to hit you at the roots with this one!

thanks for clearing that up on the tax issue, because that's a huge urban myth in our community.

hey did you see the ol' guy with no teeth on Channel 16 news last night!? "Dey don't bay no taxes - dey need to go back across dat water where dey come from!"

Then my girl with the glasses - was with me, sister said - "hey I am sorry he got shot, but dang - folks gotta work these days to get what they want, people are tired! Didn't no one tell that grown man to steal that beer!"

I was glad that they received perspectives from blacks on both sides of the story line - than just blacks on one side and whites on the other! It is clearly blacks and whites together and seperate on this one!

hey did you see the ol' guy with no teeth on Channel 16 news last night!? "Dey don't bay no taxes - dey need to go back across dat water where dey come from!"

He was missing a few teeth, not exactly all of them. In fact, I think that was the victim's father.

Folks are tired. We are tired. No one wants to be taken advantage of or robbed. But I hope we are not so tired that we resort to killing everyone who wrongs us. It starts with beer, then it goes on and on.

I think the problem I have with this whole thing is that the clerk put a $10 value on somebody's life. That's just sickening.

I believe everybody who is legally able to should be able to own a gun. I think the "castle doctrine" is good if you are in danger and you are force to use lethal forced to defend yourself. I think the concealed weapons permits are a good idea for those who qualify for them and want a means to defend themselves.

But I just don't understand the thought of shooting a shoplifter. A shoplifter, not a armed robber, not a strong-arm robber, just a damn shoplifter.

This clerk is problably going to have a lot of time in prison to think about whether he would have rather been $10 short that day or was that $10 worth the time in jail.

Off topic:
Where are ya'll getting cases of beer for $10?

LOL....that's hilarious...I'm laughing out loud for real, Tre.

LOL It was Milwaukee's Best that nasty stuff has got to be that cheap.

well L.W. I am sorry - but I got to call it like I see it.

Bubba T - I mean you are right - the clerk could have reached for the cell phone instead of the gun, or a camera instead of a gun!

But how about the kid - that robbed the man with the shotgun, stolen the money the guy had - could have walked away after stealing the money - still decided to shoot the guy in the chest. Prince Williams was his name smiling on the camera!

how about dude in Madison county - robbed someone and still went to court on another robbery, after his face was plastered on the news!

Then you got some butt head that went and robbed a family dollar - with guess what - a gun!

Then the one time someone does commit a crime, without a gun - he dies behind it!? Something has to give!

Either tougher methods of selling guns to the general public, giving business owners or workers more freedom to protect themselves - or have a police officer at hig crime business locations 24 hours a day to avoid this kind of stuff!?

hey sh*t is crazy - and like I said folks on both sides of the color line feel one way or the other about it.

baquan, here's the thing, though: You're talking about the crime problem. Chasing a guy down and shooting him to death IS the crime problem. 45th homicide of the year. And not significantly different from the previous 44.

Exactly, Tom!
Also, in all of those other cases, a gun was pulled by the robber. I don't know the specific details, but I bet this guy grabbed the beer and hauled ass out of the store. I don't think there were any threats or any interaction at all with the store owner. We can't kill people because they 'might' have a gun.

The store owner could have just been the victim of a petty theft, but he decide to make the thief the victim (of murder) when he chased him down and killed him. Like Tom said, the bigger crime here was the murder of the beer thief.

If the guy had walked in there with a gun and tried to rob the store the clerk should have shot him. The business owners already have the right to protect themselves, Castle Doctrine, remember? In every instance you mention the the victim had every right to use deadly force to protect themselves, I have no problem with that, but to shoot a shoplifter over beer is insane.

We have about nine gazillion gun laws already let's enforce them before you add more.

Hey it is a freaking epidemic! Like I said - you guys can't sway me on this!

I wonder if you guys seen that young black woman with the glasses on the channel 16 news at 6pm yesterday. Sister was snapping - because you get tired of seeing crimes getting committed by young black males in a racists a** state such as Mississippi!

I mean I could feel her anger, seriously!

I will say it again, the brotha shouldn't have got shot for stealing the beer - but with all this other foolishness going on at these gas stations, family dollars, dollar generals and fast food restaurants - it was bound to happen and people are now numb to it!

That is sad to say - but you guys can see it with your own eyes! It is time to drop those rose colored glasses and start facing the music!

Well stated BubbaT.

I mean how many gas stations, fast food restaurants, banks and other local businesses been robbed since the beginning of the year, by people "with" guns!?

I bet the numbers are astronomical when you look at the size of the Metro area!

But, that's the point! They were robbing places and they had guns. If that were the case, as Bubba said, then killing the robber would have been self defense - Castle Doctrine or not. This wasn't a robbery ("give me your money or I'll kill you" kind of thing). This was a shoplifter that didn't have a gun or threaten the clerk.

baquan - we are basically in agreement, it's just the comparisons I disagree with.

We agree:
-the man shouldn't have stolen the beer.
-the store owner shouldn't have killed the thief.

What exactly are we arguing about?

Tre - your guess is good as mine! lol!!!!!! Oh the guys reasoning for killing the guy! That is waht we are having issue with.

I just gave you my hypothesis on why he did it!

You didn't agree with the clerks reasoning for doing it.

however we are in agreement in regards to the logic of the law in this matter.

Baquan, let's be clear, I am not trying to sway you because I don't think we are even talking about the same thing. i think the point you are making...that people are frustrated, is a given. However, in this case again, the punishment doesn't fit the crime. That's just it...the guys SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN KILLED FOR ROBBING THE STORE. He posed no particular threat to the store clerk's life. I don't even think you're making that arguement. I think (and I could be wrong) that you agree with that. You are just trying to make the point that there is no excuse for a man taking anything he himself hasn't paid for. And who's disagreeing with you on that? No one that I can see.

Let me ask you a question, would Lil Wayne (or any other artist for that matter) be within his rights to shoot everyone who bootlegs or has purchased a copy of a bootleg version of his album? They've stolen money from him for work he's done. Is he within his rights to kill anyone who has a cd of his that hasn't purchased it from a store -- legally? Just a question, not to be compared to anything...just asking.

I think it's great to talk about this issue in order to educate people on what the Castle Doctrine is not -- license to murder an unarmed person, even if they're a thief.

Otherwise, though, Baquan, I don't think anyone is trying to convince you of the need to uphold the law. The truth is that if you are defending killing an unarmed person who wasn't a threat, you're taking a radical stance that flies against the very heart of both the law, and the basic foundation of American law.

So the only thing that really matters about your belief is the possibility that if you think this was justifiable that you might do the same thing and end up in prison for the rest of your life. So justify away. Sounds like it's your problem unless and until someone is a victim of your belief in lawlessness.

Good one, Queen, with the Lil Wayne description.

Or, should Bill Gates be allowed to walk up and blow anyone who pirates Microsoft software? Or should I be allowed to kill someone who puts one of my full stories on their Web site? That's illegal, and it's theft of my intellectual property, and arguably worth more than a $10 case of beer.

Or, here's a good one: should local publishers be able to storm up to Ledger/TDN distribution drivers and kill them for taking our MIPA boxes from in front of stores without telling us in advance, with thousands of our publications inside, and putting them in a locked lot in Rankin County? (As they did again last week.)

Obviously, we have no desire to do that, but the frustration is just as fierce, I assure you. It's our property.

baquan- you say I didn't agree with the clerk's reasoning. Well, I did say, in my first post on this topic, "Sure, it would make you mad, but you can't chase a car down and kill somebody for shoplifting" I understand he was frustrated and fed up. That just isn't a good reason to murder another human being.

enough is enough already...i agree with clayton bigsby, er, banquan2000

if all these negroes could just stop committing crimes people wouldnt have to shoot them. i for one agree with an eye for an eye. the guy couldve had a gun. i couldve had a baby if not for that damn y chromosome. seriously, the guy is fed up and scared. so this means that when a cop pulls me over for dwb i can pop a cap in his monkey @$$...next time someone cuts me off, a real drive-by. im with banquan lets just go back to a time where men were men and preventative measures were in place. you know… when black men were lynched and white men knew their place. all thieves should be shot.
ree gardless.

see i like where this is going.

you on the internet at work? blam! your old job
is hiring.

eating grapes at mcdades to see if they are sweet?
mr. mcdade got the shotty to ya body.

time out for laws and judges and juries. let people do their job. maybe if the crime rate was a little a higher, criminals wouldnt have it so easy.

i think i know who im voting for…
Banquan for mayor 2009…at least he’s honest

Queen you used an interesting angle! lol!!!! But I will say this much, I bet if lil' wayne was at be-bop records doing an autograph session and somebody came up to his table and just took one of his cd's and ran off - we would be having this same conversation!

I mean we are talking about someone running up in your place of business and just grabing something and running! I have had my apartment broken into, and they got me for all my fresh gear and video games! I mean it was stuff I worked hard for! I wasn't selling drugs or prostituting women to get it!

That was a violation of me!

skipp first and foremost - you didn't spell my name right even once in your post! In regards to the black men getting lynched and white men knew their place!

Well!? Where did all the boldness now come out - I mean if my brother gets lynched by some white cat today - the dude that did it wouldn't stand a chance on breathing much anyway once I get to him - court or no court.

Let's see how many more armed robberies did we have last night, McAlister's on Northside Drive and the Papa John's on McDowell and then someone let off a shot up in there!?

see the people protesting are doing it because it was indian person that shot a black man - but why is there not more protesting when a black man kills a black, or how about when these same neighborhood gas stations where you get your chips, sodas - that quick gallon of milk you need for the cake you are trying to make.

All this crime is happening and we are reactive instead of pro-active.

Tre - there is no good reason to murder another human being. There is no good reason to steal from another human being. There was no good reason for 400 years to trail black people across the Atlantic ocean for forced labor. But until people start being accountable for the actions that they - premeditated, such as rob a gas station, steal a car or rape a woman ,