I’m Fed Up!!! Tired of folks blaming hip-hop for our ills: My response to Leonard Pitts’ Column

SORRY, but this column pushed me over the edge. I was really trying not to rehash the Micheal Richards incident but another black columnist (who of course is OLDER) has pointed the finger for ALLLLLL this at us!

I think it's time Kaze gets his own JFP blog. ;-)

I love the line about the introduction of mayo.

We invented mayo? Now I know who to blame. :)

Kaze, you rock. Donna: I agree. He needs a blog. He has some awesome things to say that need to be heard!

I offered him one. Waiting for a response. ;-)

Dont know if I can get riled up like this EVERYDAY Donna LOL...Afraid somedays may be a little boring :-) But hey...if ya didnt need something everyday...SURE I'd love to. If the folks would read what I have to say. Just fill me in on what I need to do. But THIS is something that really ticked me off. And no artist anywhere EVER gets a chance to rebut. We just constantly get bombarded with criticism!!

No, I only ask my JackBloggers to commit to one new original entry a week. You can do more, and you can comment as often, or as little, as you want.

Let's e-mail about it.

Donna I second that motion.....Kamikaze definetely deserves a blog.

Are you talking about Leonard Pitts? Can you say with a straight face that Rappers haven't contributed in any way to re-popularizing, urging, or making fashionable and acceptable the N-word? I know Paul Mooney is a hypocrite and lunatic although he's often funny as hell like many of the people he wrote and writes for - Richard Pryor, Chapelle, and I believe Arsenio, and many more.

I'm still waiting on my grandson to finally use it so I can pop him upside the head and explain it's former use. I'll be gone shortly for the rest of the week, but can you really say that anyone has done more in recent years to push the N-word than rappers?

Rappers can still tell stories about brothers without using that word. If rappers and so many blacks are going to use it why can't Kramer and everyone else use it too? I agree Kramer didn't use it in a nice way.

I'm not a hater of rap and hip-hop but I know y'all can't intelligently defend the use of that word. And I suspect that is the double truth, Ruth.

It's happening! Give us a minute. ;-)

I'm with Ray on this one. I just read that column, and I think Kamikaze may be over reacting a bit. Pitts didn't blame hip hop or rap for "all of societies ills." He merely pointed out that the "n word" is in highest circulation among certain african american entertainers, and that he's been wishing for a long time that they would stop. Because the word has a hate filled past.

As Ray asks, can you really say that many rap and hip hop artists do NOT use the n-word, and that that use keeps it "in circulation."?

And, as someone over 40, quit trying to make this about "young" vs. "old".

I'm also with Ray and Kate on this one. The n-word should have long been removed from the American vocabulary, white and black, and it's continued use in the hip-hop community is the reason the laserbeam of criticism keeps being focused there. I'm not suggesting that hip-hop is the cause or root of the problem, but I think the continued overuse of a word whose sole purpose was to demean and dehumanize black people, particularly by black entertainers who many kids look up to as role models, is something that shouldn't be tolerated in America and it is time for black "leaders" to take a more active stand against its use in music, literature, and everyday conversation. Would such a campaign work? Maybe not. But at least it would show all of America once and for all that it is not a word that we should condone.

is there a link to the column?

Kaze:

Watch Richard Pryor Live on the Sunset Strip and his comments on the issue.

Sorry..been away for a minute. But..Ray and others...I DO admit that that hiphop/rappers are guilty of using the word. Hell, I use it. I just denounce the idea that WE are solely responsible (or mainly responsible) for its commercialization. I refuse to assume that role. The term was not made "popular" in entertainment, the term was made "popular" in everday life in which entertainment reflects. The insinuation that rap made it worse is irresponsible. Again...I humbly say to all of you that hiphop is a reflection of popular culture. It is the manifestation of what these young men and women have experienced in their hoods good and bad. When they've grown up hearing the "N" word and other curse words for that matter with no buffer and no one to tell them better they are conditioned to continue to use that word. How can you expect a rapper who was conditioned as a child to use the "N" word when talking with his peers, when there was no one around to tell him the true meaning of the word and its history, to then create music and somehow NOT use it? Im offeneded that the first place Jesse Jackson said he would reach out to was the "rappers" as if talking to us would end the "N" wod forever. Does anyone here think that eliminating the "N" word from rap lyrics is going to erase the word from the language? Even better do you think no one in America will use it again. If Black folks somehow stopped altogether tomorrow you would STILL hear the word. The excuse that white folks use it and think its ok because they hear us use it is not solid either. Because if they DIDNT hear us use it...guess what...some of them would STILL use it. Period. Again we, use it, again, we do contribute but the root cause, NO. Overuse NO, highest circulation amongst Black entertainers, NO Im sorry. Don't pen that on us. Not defending the use of the word at all. Defending being accused of populariazing it. To me..and I will always maintain this..it is a word, history and connotation aside, I know its history and its meaning but I will NOT let it have power over me.

"And, as someone over 40, quit trying to make this about "young" vs. "old"."

Sorry Kate. LOL but usually when its someone criticizing hiphop and we get into pants sagging, earrings, risque lyrics, "N" word etc....its usually some old fogey who doesnt understand hiphop and thus goes on stereotypes and propaganda. You all must know I spend half my days fighting those stereotypes trying to get people to take us seriously and NOT look at ALL rappers as ignorant, non-educated thugs. It does at times Kate boil down to a young/old issue unfortunately.

I view the word much like most words that have been used in hate. It's allll about intent. The English language is VERY complex and constantly evolving, so it's just not logical to me to want a word banned.

I see Ray's point about young people, and I view that as a "respect for elders". I call my girlfriends #####, slut, whore...all the words used against women all the time but I would NEVER in front of my mother.

My students used it in my classroom and it drove me nuts. They were punished for using it there. But hey, I was an English teacher. I never called the French teacher a slut either, but when we when were on a personal level I could. (she was also my friend.)

I called a girls momma once for saying one of my students was acting "niggerish" when he was just being a total ass that day. That was the MOST not cool of the times they used it. The intent there was to insult.

It's all about intent and situation. I'm not going to blame hip hop for the vernacular it uses, and I do NOT think that Michael Richards in ANY way had been jaded to the use by hip hop artists or anyone for that matter. He obviously had thought those thoughts for a long time, and they came out in a rage. Intent was not, "Hey friend/brother/shout out..."

Something else I've thought about....

I've often heard moms call their KIDS that word. It seems almost as if they are training them to be jaded by it....to not get enraged by it...and while it stings me to hear it said to a child, it makes total sense to take away the power of the word...especially if that person is susceptible to it being used AGAINST him in rage/hate.

It's an awful word. But hip hop artists aren't helping matters by using it in rhyme. That Kanye West "Gold Digger" song was one of the most popular hip hop songs to hit mainstream in a while. Not only is the word being used in rap, in that song it's given a nice little beat that sticks in anyone's head who hears it. If you don't want people to sing it or say it, giving it a nice little beat is probably a bad idea. Again, it's an awful word and no one should use it.

Kaze, I'm so glad you've got the world figured out, and have written off anyone over 40. Because, that *really* furthers the discussion. I'm so glad you don't stereotype older people.

It's sad that too many parents are using language towards their kids (not just the n-word) that are negatively shaping their self-perception and self-esteem. Calling your kid a ni**a, motherf* or b!tch, how is that promoting a positive self-image for a child?

I believe the n-word will never be eliminated from our society as long as there are white people who view blacks as second-class, inferior citizens, and as long as black America continues to view the word as harmless within our own community.

"I humbly say to all of you that hiphop is a reflection of popular culture. It is the manifestation of what these young men and women have experienced in their hoods good and bad." - Kaze

I see what you're saying but have a different perspective. I think music/art/entertainment makes popular culture. You can't tell me black kids in Minnesota were dropping the N-bomb like those in the South, Chicago, Detroit, LA and NYC where the word was used regularly by both whites and blacks as both positive and negative terms...

Now, because of globalization and the impact of hip hop and mass media, you can hear Japanese kids saying "What up, my N!@#$!" The word isn't part of their culture in any way. It was exported by American rap. They certainly wouldn't be using it in that context if it was learned from a history book or documentary. Rap is responsible for the current manifestation and popularity of the word in both a racist and non-racist vernacular. I say that because it enables racists to use "they use it why can't I?" as a means to justify their usage.

While it may reflect what a city, tribe or people are experiencing in a certain point in time, it, more than likely, is not what someone in small-town Iowa is experiencing. With globalization, MTV and the Internet, terminology and experience becomes a light-speed meme with the power to alter vocabulary, dialect, attitudes, demeanor and more with the click of a power button.

So, at this point, what happens in LA doesn't stay in LA and the people receiving the output from LA might not grasp the concept, the use or its origins. For that matter, the probably don't care and are simply Jonesin'.

In todays market, it is quickly becoming the artist's and the backers of the artists (read: labels, investors, marketing) responsibility to own what they release on the market (just as it is our leader's responsibility to own the mess they create). Art is all about ownership. If you use dark media to relay your message, don't complain when people call you a dark artist. You make it, you own it and you suffer for your art.

I guess to simplify what I'm saying... You are responsible for your output. As adults, there's little excuse. Own it and have justifiable reasons or explanation for doing what you do (read: an artist's statement). Blaming the use of a word or the continuation of derogatory acts/works on pop/mass culture does not mean it should continue. That's an escuse.

If that were the case, slavery would still be around... Better yet, history probably would not have unfolded to this extent on any level. Theoretically, we'd all be in caves if the excuses coming from the hip-hop scene are any indication of humanity's ability to evolve -- especially young people's ability to evolve or shift.

Pop culture is dynamic and has potential to continuously evolve -- that's what it's all about. The probability for change is not only predictable, it is demanded. Unfortuntely, the artists and corporations making money are not pushing for change and the struggling artists, more often than not, are biting the ones making money. The snake chases its tail and that chase becomes dogmatic and cyclical. History repeats and becomes bastardized.

And, by the way, Kaz, I'm not suggesting you or anyone else must bend to anyone's ideals. I'm simply saying that if it is your output or art, you should be able to provide a concise statement on the work and why it says what it says. Certainly if a painter is expected to produce a statement about his/her work, a musician should be as well. In the art world, that simple statement can make the difference between a classic piece and craptacular porn.

Kaze:

when Black music was motown and funk, you didn't hear its use among people as you do now. In fact, you didn't hear it as much among them until Rap took off.

You don't reflect the culture, rappers help CREATE the culture. Turn it off if you don't like it some will say. Time to bear some responsibility. Kids will always have a natural inclination to go for things that are forbidden or disliked by adults.

"You don't reflect the culture, rappers help CREATE the culture."
...SIGH....That simply reinforces my stance...Music has and always will be a reflection of the real world. Artists experiences and emotions put to music whatever that music is. When Marvin Gaye sang "Whats Goin On" he was writing about the Vietnam war that he saw manifest itself on TV everyday. When he created "Lets Get it On" he was speaking to experiences or conversations he had had with women. All of those were direct reactions to his life. The music was organic but the IDEA came from life, from experience...get it? AGAIN we simply report what we've seen, what we've heard, what we've experinced. Rap music did not CREATE the "N" word. What happened is that a lot of rappers heard that word used liberally when they were growing up and it became a part of their vernacular. With no entity around them to explain the infamous history of the word they will keep that word etched in their psyche. When they write raps...of course it will come out. But not Kingfish because we CREATED the word..hell!! We didnt even make it popular!!! We overuse it...probably..but we're faaaaar fromt he blame. The blame starts in evry individual household in America. It starts with educating at an early age about the word.

Look at what has happened with Smoking in America. Kids no longer think its cool to smoke. Do some still end up doing it...YES. but they have been bombarded so with info from an early age that now they know the consequences..thus there's a change in young folks mentality toward smoking. Rappers smoke right? and alot. Its in videos. It looks cool. But smoking like the "N" word was a problem looong before rappers took it.

"I'm simply saying that if it is your output or art, you should be able to provide a concise statement on the work and why it says what it says. Certainly if a painter is expected to produce a statement about his/her work,"

...And thats EXACTLY what I do Knol, as fans of my music and those who have followed my career will attest. I always temper my more commercial work with more conscious offerings. Im still that same enemy to the establishment I just learned how to better infiltrate the system dig? I can stand by and stand up for ANYTHING that Ive ever done as an artist. I have explanations for every lyric and every idea. Whether you can agree or disagree. But some artists don't and thats where the problem comes in.

"Kaze, I'm so glad you've got the world figured out, and have written off anyone over 40. Because, that *really* furthers the discussion. I'm so glad you don't stereotype older people."

Kate..I truly apologize did I say something offensive because that was defintely not my intention. As those over "40" go..you are at least here trying to understand why we do what we do. It is those in your demographic who simply prefer to just dismiss us as vagrants without opening the lines of communications. THAT'S who I was referring to. And I would never stereotype my elders but you have to admit our elders "stereotype" the hell outta us. So i hope you see my frustration but it was not an "attack" on older people. Again, you are here trying to understand...being open minded...which is more than I can say for some.

Music has and always will be a reflection of the real world.

I agree with that, Kamikaze. But I suggest that you're selling yourself short if you do not believe that your music, and the way you do it, can in fact affect the culture, and help change it or create a new one, for better or worse. I mean, if the most popular music in America today was glorifying violence against black people, or denigrating your race, I suspect you might call for the musicians, and the record companies, to be more responsible.

Of course, they might say: Well, our music is just reflecting all the racism in the country and, besides, it's the only way we can get rich. When we get rich enough, we'll start funding programs to change the culture.

I say that, by the way, in complete agreement with Banner's comment on the radio earlier this week that a double standard is lodged toward rappers. I just *loved* his example about putting little girls out on football fields in little more than panties to jump around. What does that have to do with moving the football down the field, he asked. Good question.

However, I've never believed that hypocrisy in any way negates the need for each of us take responsibility for our own little postage stamp of the world. If successful rappers (regionally or nationally) are not going to stand up and declare a moratorium of turning women into "ho's" in your music, who is going to? Y'all are leaders, and you have the power to affect your culture in a positive way by showing more respect toward women in general. It is truly sad if y'all think you're so enslaved to certain music that sells (and I used with word intentionally, and with respect) that you cannot reject negative messages in it. You really can't hide completely behind the cultural-reflection argument, and I am someone who understands and believes that popular music reflects the problems in society. But that also means that the people making it and getting successful off it must embrace the messages they're reflecting and then do everything they can to change them. If not, you're just a cog in the wheel.

Besides, the pimp stuff is getting old and started to sound real dated; every industry needs to innovate and stay ahead of the curve, and I say that as someone who runs a business that has to stay cutting edge to survive. You can never rest on your laurels if you want to be a true success. I'd sure love to see southern rappers I know and really like as people lead the next great, compassionate hip-hop movement. It's only right that it come from Mississippi, IMHO.

Also, it is sad to send such negative messages about black women (and men) into white America where so many rap records are purchased.

Wasn't hip hop originally born within a multi-cultural environment? Brooklyn? Anyone know a good place to read more about the genre? thank you.

Wikipedia may be a good initial start... Wiki-entry on Hip Hop.

There are also documentaries galore and plenty of books that can be found on most mega-sites on the web.

I don't personally care so much if black rappers drop the N-bomb or female rappers use the words "#####" or "ho," any more than I care if a gay rapper uses anti-gay epithets, because the context is clearly not exclusionary. I get the fact that as a white heterosexual male, there are words that will sound prejudiced coming out of my mouth that might not sound prejudiced coming out of other people's mouths. I get that. It doesn't bother me, and I don't see why it bothers other white heterosexual males. "They do it, why can't I?" is rooted in the blackface disparity, where a white man can "go black" any time he wants but God have mercy on the black man who thinks he can "go white." So thank God that disparity is finally being recognized, and personally, my ethic is that the N-bomb is something that black people can say casually without coming across as racists that white people can't say casually without expecting to coming across as racist, and I think that's exactly the way it should be.

Whites do not get to own the entire English vocabulary. There are certain words that we should not use. The N-bomb is one of them.

That Leonard Pitts doesn't get this doesn't surprise me. I am losing patience with this whole novel idea of "older black men bash younger black men using the language of 'bootstrap' white conservatism." I read one column a couple of weeks ago from some old black dude about some purported epidemic of black men camping out at stores to buy PS3s. Sorry, but most young black men I know can't afford to blow a night or $600 on a fucking PS3, much less is there any kind of epidemic of that going on. And sorry, Bill Cosby, but if you have to spend 4 to 6 hours every night doing homework, then that means the kid is being homeschooled and has no reason to attend class. Seriously. Want to spend 4 to 6 hours a day doing homework? Go to [url=http://www.k12.com]http://www.k12.com[/url] and drop out of the public school system, because if you have to spend that amount of time being an autodidact, you may as well have your day free to do other things.

Now, don't get me started on "pimp." I won't even use the MySpace "pimp your site" stuff because I refuse to have the "pimp" graphics or links on my page. As far as I'm concerned, pimp chic is just as bad as rapist chic--hell, they're basically the same thing, in practice. And that's really the main thing that keeps me away from most mainstream hip-hop.


Cheers,

TH

Let me be clear: "drop out" should read "transfer out." I'm not recommending dropping out. Everybody needs a high school diploma to be competitive in the workforce (except me--I went straight to college without one). All I'm saying is that if a kid has enough self discipline to spend 4 to 6 hours every night studying, that kid would do just fine in a distance learning program. And if a kid has to spend 4 to 6 hours every night studying, a distance learning program would probably be a much better choice.


Cheers,

TH

thanks, Knol for the wiki link. as for the N-word, I'm at a loss. In someways I feel that is a decision that ought to be made within the black community, rather than the community at large. To me there is power in the idea of "reappropriating" a word so that the word cannot be used anymore to harm you. Yet, does the power play out? Like, when a woman uses the b word...to me it seems that it galvanizes energy of the oppressed yet ultimately maybe doesn't serve the best end.

"I am losing patience with this whole novel idea of "older black men bash younger black men using the language of 'bootstrap' white conservatism." "

...I am too TH! Thats basically where my response came from. Not to say that I or any other rappers don't use the "N" word...we do. But we are NOT the end all be all. Not even close. I think that bashing comes from a place of guilt. To a degree it is because THEY failed us and made this generation what it is. We were not born in a vacuum. You want to blame someone for kids listening to rappers more than they do teachers or preachers or parents...blame yourselves!!!!!

but what about reclaiming words to take away their power? I know the gay community has done it with some words that were originally used as insults.

So Bill Cosby getting mad over a 70 or so illegitimacy rate among Blacks, the coarsening of the culture, and saying men should work, have respect for their families and the kids they help create is white conservative values? That is a real good one.

and young people griping about how older people gripe about them and how they don't follow certain standards is nothing new.

Go read Bill Cosby's Playboy Interview from the 1960's. He was pretty damned edgy in his views back then and hmmm.........


sounded somewhat like Kamikaze if you ever get a chance to read it.

Go to the CLinton Library. They have a copy of it in the Collection of Playboy Interviews Book.

Uh oh, a white guy just played the-Bill-Cosby-out-of-context card again.

Cosby's still pretty edgy in his views, Kingfish—and he is quick to say that he doesn't give a damn white folks think.

Nikki Giovanni can't stand him, and when she spoke at JSU, she was talking about not liking him then said, "Bill! What'd we ever do to you? (pause) 'sides quit buying Jello Pudding Pops?"

(but I'll say I do love jello pudding pops and wish they'd come back)


Only person Nikki dissed on more was Condi Rice. Third place went to Alice Walker.

Growl. Love that fire.

I'm sure he does. Have no doubt whatsoever and never said otherwise. I've actually read his words and his long interviews are a pretty good indicater of how he thinks.

How do you know I am white anyway? You've never met me. It is an interview worth reading by the way. That book has some gems in it. The Ali one is pretty damn good as well. Where else can you read G Gordon Liddy, Leary, Ali, Cosby and others in the same book?

How do you know I haven't met you?

Let's just say, Kingfish, that like so many, you are listening to the Cosby quotes you want to hear when you say this:

So Bill Cosby getting mad over a 70 or so illegitimacy rate among Blacks, the coarsening of the culture, and saying men should work, have respect for their families and the kids they help create is white conservative values? That is a real good one.

It is really offensive that you somehow think that you and Coz are the only ones who believe these things. You're not listening, per usual.

Here's an interview Cosby did with Tavis after his speech that was twisted out of context:

Cosby: It was the white man who got the word from somebody who was there, who called the white man, who put it in the white paper, which is called the Washington Post. And from that, they left out Mr. Cosby saying 50%. They left out the part about fathering, and they certainly left out “We've got to take back the neighborhood and the responsibility--take it back.” Then they added something that I think was incorrect, that the people came out stone-faced, stunned. I don't think they were. And I heard the audience a couple of times saying, “yes,” people applauding.

Responsibility? No, a pain. I'm really in pain. And I want it stopped. I want people to get together, and I want people to take their neighborhood back. Hey, man, you know, to be--I've traveled around all the different cities, and to turn on the TV or the news at 5:00, and I read that some child, 12-year-old, shot. Whether it's Dayton, Ohio; Wilberforce, Ohio; Pennsylvania, Mississippi. And for me, it's painful. That's a life gone. And then when they catch the person that did it, that's another life gone. Where are we? Who are we? 50% dropout in school. 60 to 70% of our incarcerated are illiterate.

Tavis: Cornel West says that your words come from a place and in a spirit of love. I accept that. There are others, as you well know, who have a different point of view. Some have called, have described what you said a week or so ago as classist, elitist, and rooted in generational warfare.

Cosby: Might be generational warfare if they want war. If they want war which is from the words of my mouth without biting down. I think it's clear that I'm not talking about all people. And I think people who are looking at elitists have the wrong attitude, and they must be talking about themselves. Because I don't deal that way. But I am saying, “Stop it.” I mean, at what point do you stand up, after you've said it very nicely, “And I think this…”

There are organizations in the lower economic neighborhood. Parents can take their kids, the kids can go to-- These people work very, very hard. But by the same token, if I'm a schoolteacher, I may have a problem, because 20 hours, what is spoken is not spoken in my classroom. And I'm not--somebody took issue and tried to say that I was excusing white people from what is supposed to be happening with fairness. I'm not. I'm saying, OK, Bill Cosby never said this. He never said a thing, OK? 2 years from now, wanna make a bet on 60%? Wanna make a bet on more deaths in the neighborhood than the police are doing? Let's weigh and measure how many the cops killed and how many our drug dealers killed. Let's weigh and measure the outrage, which is deserved, against the policeman and what happens when the drug dealer shoots a 12-year-old child? Where is it?

Actually those quotes you pasted are what I expect from Cosby. Didn't take anything out of context, just disagreeing a little with what was said above about White Conservative Values. If I took it out of context, then the statement I was referring to did as well.

As for what you posted I agree with what he is saying. Taken out of context or have words twisted or played with by a reporter? Imagine that happening.

If I took it out of context, then the statement I was referring to did as well.

Why don't you post the statement you're referring as a good little blogger would do? It's sure not clear from this posting of yours:

getting mad over a 70 or so illegitimacy rate among Blacks, the coarsening of the culture, and saying men should work, have respect for their families and the kids they help create is white conservative values?

For the life of me, I can't find anyone here who has even typed the word "conservative" on this thread other than you, 'Fish. And your statement that someone here, of all places, would even try to argue that getting mad over issues like work and respect are "white, conservative values." What the hell you talkin' about, Willis?

Methinks you just committed a logical fallacy called Rewriting Someone's Words So You Can Attack Them With a Half-Baked Bill Cosby Reference.

Here is what Tom wrote:

That Leonard Pitts doesn't get this doesn't surprise me. I am losing patience with this whole novel idea of "older black men bash younger black men using the language of 'bootstrap' white conservatism." I read one column a couple of weeks ago from some old black dude about some purported epidemic of black men camping out at stores to buy PS3s. Sorry, but most young black men I know can't afford to blow a night or $600 on a f****** PS3, much less is there any kind of epidemic of that going on. And sorry, Bill Cosby, but if you have to spend 4 to 6 hours every night doing homework, then that means the kid is being homeschooled and has no reason to attend class. Seriously. Want to spend 4 to 6 hours a day doing homework? Go to [url=http://www.k12.com]http://www.k12.com[/url] and drop out of the public school system, because if you have to spend that amount of time being an autodidact, you may as well have your day free to do other things.

forgive me. Conservatism he wrote, not conservative. ;-)

the language of 'bootstrap' white conservatism."

Ah, so you're equating any and all white conservatism with "bootstrap white conservatism"?

And you're translating Tom's comment there into:

So Bill Cosby getting mad over a 70 or so illegitimacy rate among Blacks, the coarsening of the culture, and saying men should work, have respect for their families and the kids they help create is white conservative values? That is a real good one.

I see. Indeed, that's a "real one."

I'm out; Tom can fight off the duck-pecking attacks should he care to.

Kingfish writes:
So Bill Cosby getting mad over a 70 or so illegitimacy rate among Blacks,

What the hell is "illegitimacy"?

the coarsening of the culture,

Relative to when?

and saying men should work, have respect for their families and the kids they help create

Okay, seriously, I am a MAJOR opponent of the whole MRA anti-paternity "fraud" movement, so I would just absolutely love it if you could find any post where I argued with the proposition that men should be held responsible for the kids they sire. Go ahead. Find the post.

Or apologize for smearing me with some idiotic anti-feminist point of view that I don't actually hold.

is white conservative values?

What? You lost me after "So Bill Cosby..."

Fact: Bill Cosby has every right to be angry. His son was murdered, for God's sake.

Fact: Much of what Bill Cosby has said over the past 40 years has been true. Some of it has been pretty stupid. The same can be said of any public figure, no matter how sainted.

Fact: There are some older conservative black writers who say almost nothing that doesn't disparage young black men.

All I'm saying is that one of the stupid parts was his argument that kids should attend school all day, then go home and study like they're being homeschooled, too. You want to argue with that claim, go ahead. You want to argue with something I never actually said, then go Google around until you find someone who actually did say it and then argue with that person, but don't wank around with me.

My position is that public schools shouldn't be treated like daytime penitentiaries for low-income youth. Kids are there to be educated. If you have to spend 4-6 hours every night studying, if you're working harder at home than you are at school, then you're basically homeschooling without the benefit of an organized homeschooling curriculum. I don't think that makes a whole hell of a lot of sense.

This is one of the reasons why I support expanding the GED Program.


Cheers,

TH

As far as I'm concerned, the 'n-word' was ugly when white racists used it in Mississippi years ago and it's ugly now when rappers use it.

I don't buy into the 'it's okay for 'us' to use it but not whites' argument at all. Ugly is ugly.

And call me an old fogey if you want, but any rap/hip hop I've ever heard has been racist, sexist, and violence-promoting in the name of 'just reflecting conditions as they are' whereas the truth is that the lyrics 'promote' racism, sexism, prostitution, and violence and it's absurd to argue otherwise.

Additionally, what Bill Cosby says makes a lot of sense to me and I'm amazed that anyone would argue otherwise.

What is there to disagree with in what he said?

If you don't get an education in this society, you end up on welfare or in a dead-end job. If you have a kid as a teenager and don't get an education, you end up on welfare or in a dead-end job
.
There's no mystery about it; it's a clear relationship.

Lucdix,

I'd like to know how certain young blacks using the N-word different from current technologically-gifted people appropriating another N word: Nerd. Or for that matter, some gay men using the Q-word to describe themselves. After all, both "nerd" and "queer" were considerd insults not too long ago. Why can't "Ni****" also be a case of African Americans claiming the derogatory label in a spirit of "Yeah, I AM one! So F****** What? Why should I be ashamed to be a Ni****?" (said in the spirit of pride and self-respect). If this rule of thumb is good enough for gays and nerds, then why isn't it good enough for Blacks?

Well, they're different words, different situations, different histories.

Think about these two statements:
"Say it loud, I'm black and I'm proud!" and
"Say it loud, I'm a n**** and I'm proud to be one!.
Which works better?

I don't even like to write the 'n-word' with asterisks because it's a racist, derogatory, insulting word. It's not reclaimable - in my view - and I don't think anyone else, black or white, except a small segment of the rap/hip hop community buys it either. Neither does Bill Cosby, neither did Delores Tucker, q.v.,

Tucker made civil rights strides during the sixties and seventies, becoming the first black woman to be named vice chair of the state Democratic Party and the first woman vice president of the Pennsylvania NAACP. In 1965 she was the woman to the immediate right of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. as they led a civil rights march in Selma, Alabama...

In 1993, she incurred the wrath of free speech enthusiasts when she began a public protest of gangsta rap lyrics. She even picketed the NAACP in 1994 – despite being a member of the board of trustees – when it nominated Tupac Shakur for one of its Image Awards.

In addition to which, it's absurd to equate skin color with anything --- that's the definition of racism. There's not a reason in the world why a black person or a white person or anyone of any color has to buy into a certain culture just because a number of others with the same skin color do. It's also idiotic to maintain that words have no power or that entertainers have no influence. If the n-word had no power, rappers wouldn't use it.

No one is blaming the hip hop community for all of the problems some segments of the black community face, but they're certainly contributing, and it's disingenuous to maintain otherwise. It starts with trying to redefine a word which will never have a positive meaning, continues with putting down women - calling them b*s or w*s, glorifying violence, glorifying drugs, glorifying crime - nothing which contributes to a positive self image or positive efforts to change lives. It's *all* about certain words and there any number of words these rappers could choose besides, just to take an example, m***f***r. And you're defending them on what grounds?

Well said, Philip. I'd also like to point out that, in a vacuum, there would be nothing wrong with anybody using the N-word. Absent its history, it's just a charmingly folksy mispronunciation of "Negro"--nothing intrinsically ugly, or even derogatory, about it. Rolls right off the tongue. In another half-millennium or so, it might be part of everybody's vernacular, with no racial connotations. One can imagine Asuka Steinman-Jones, the 12.5% Euro, 25% black, 37.5% Asian, and 25% Jewish candidate for the 2408 presidential nomination, innocently greeting her VP nominee Krishna Rodriguez with a hearty "What's happening, my n___a!"

But then there's the history, the very ugly history of whites grabbing that word and beating blacks over the head with it. I don't want to be part of that, I don't want to do anything to hurt people of color whom I love and respect, and I don't want to be mistaken for the kind of white bastard who would insensitively use that word, knowing the damage it can do. That's why I don't say it. If I were black, maybe I would. I've been known to use plenty of ugly words from time to time. The fact that folks consider the N-bomb an ugly word isn't the reason I don't use it. The fact that--coming from my big fat pink mouth--it's a hurtful word, an exclusionary word, a racist word, a prejudicial word, is why I don't use it.


Cheers,

TH

lucdix writes:
In addition to which, it's absurd to equate skin color with anything --- that's the definition of racism.

No, the definition of racism is thinking and behaving in a way that benefits people of a certain "race" over people of another "race." Some of the nastiest racism our state has experienced over the past century has been committed in the name of "neutrality"--the so-called literacy tests that defined Jim Crow, for example, would have still been racist even if they were enforced in a completely race-neutral way (and we all know they weren't, but that's beside the point).


Cheers,

TH

By the way, here's hoping that by 2408 we've finally ditched that scientifically worthless piece of crap we call "race." There is no such thing as a "race"; regional genetic variation within "races" far exceed genetic variations between "races." I use the word "race" because it's still part of our culture, but I use it to refer to a social construct with absolutely no legitimate basis in science.

To put it another way: When I say "black," I'm talking about how society arbitrarily identifies a very genetically diverse group of people as part of a tidy category based on piss-poor 19th-century anthropology. I am not talking about a biological black "race." There is no such thing. We are all homo sapiens sapiens, with DNA that is essentially indistinguishable.

So when we talk about "neutrality," what we're really talking about, nice as the idea sounds, is ignoring the way that these social constructed categories affect--harm, hurt, include, exclude, pay, rob, heal, murder--the human beings they so awkwardly force into these arbitrary groups. We are not, I hope, operating on a wink-wink-nudge-nudge belief that there really are biologically distinct races and that the facade of neutrality must be maintained at all cost in order to keep overt pseudoscientific racism at bay. I don't think anybody on this forum is that regressive.


Cheers,

TH

Regarding: Queer vs Nerd vs N-bomb

Queer and nerd have never been part of institutionalized hatred, discrimination, slavery, segregation, lynching, etc. They may have been used as insults, in attacks, etc but they never had the same power and embraced by a society as a whole.

Fag and dyke may be a better comparison but those are still new words compared to the historic N-bomb. They aren't used as frequently in the general population as the N-word is today and was in the past. Even today, fag is rarely a term of empowerment when used by a gay man or woman. It often is said with loathing, insult or sarcasm. It's hardly a term of endearment.

Dyke, well, that's it's own word that many lesbians take as insult or use as insult. A few feel empowered by the word but they're generally fringe types (read: Dykes on Bikes) or "power-dykes" with strong personalities and wills. The term even has a "strong" sound when articulated compared to fag or the N-bomb.

So, the only way to really get to the bottom is to question why other races don't attempt to empower themselves with racist terms that have been used against them. Why don't Latinos and Mexicans embrace the word "spic"? Why don't Asians use "gook" or "chink"? The list goes on... If ownership of hateful words empowers, why aren't other minorities that have been oppressed and/or loathed by the majority owning these words?

I suspect it's because no matter how hard you try to own it, you simply can't erase its dark history or its rooted meaning. It still has the power to belittle regardless of the context.

Even a mother can lovingly call her child an "unwanted pregnancy", an "oops" or a "cute little sh!t"... Still, it's probably not very healthy for the child or their relationship.

While I agree on some level that the current use of the N-bomb has defused some of the negativity associated with the word (or maybe desensitized), it is a word I do not believe can be fully owned by the black community regardless of the context in which it is used. I say this because racists and those seeking to verbally assault a black person know the vitriolic nature of the word... As do all blacks I know. In other words, no matter how desensitized we become to the word, it will still hold its racist and hateful power.

I agree with luc on this one. There's ugly words that are ugly, no matter who's using them. Language is a gift, and should be used with an appreciation of its scope, subtlety and power. Using hate filled, ugly words, should be done sparingly, if at all, and with a full awareness of what one is doing. It seems to me that Michael Richards meltdown and the reaction to it is proof enough that this word has not been reclaimed, and I personally don't think it should be. To me, its analogous to certain people "reclaiming" the confederate flag.

Kaze, you wrote:
It is those in your demographic who simply prefer to just dismiss us as vagrants without opening the lines of communications. THAT'S who I was referring to.

To which I respond, "it is those in your demographic who simply prefer just to dismiss me as a slut and a whore without opening the lines of communciations." Or, "It is those in your demographic who simply prefer just to dismiss me as 'old' without opening the lines of communications."

For someone who gets upset when *any* aspect of hip hop or rap is criticized, you're awfully quick to leap from individual to stereoptype, and dismiss whole groups of people with a very broad stroke. Pitts did not "blame all of societys ills" on rap, as your headline suggests, nor is he criticizing you because he's "old."

One of my favorite rappers, ever, is Eminem. He, to my knowledge, has never used the "n" word in his lyrics. But, then of course, he isn't black.... so maybe he can't say it.

Question: If I'm singing along to a rap song, that uses that word, and I say it within the context of the song, is that... ok?

Kate, your example of Michael Richards is a great example of how this word has not been reclaimed and how the word itself still grossly repulses and angers people.

ok...now once again Kate you are attacking me for generalizing when it sis clear that I stated earlier that I acknowledge YOU being here trying to have a dialogue...unlike some others. Yes! I will forever defend my profession because with all its faults I still maintain we only speak on what we see. I don't understand how one cant see that IMO.
..If these kids grew up around scholars who taught them proper english and they lived in pristene meadows where dandelions grew and no one did drugs and everyone eats from a bounty of plentiful food everyday. Where crack didnt exist and every child ate and was adequately clothed everyday. a place where they learned the origins and meanings of the "N" word or the "b" word and had a figure or mentor who guided them the we would...not...be..having...this...discussion now PERIOD. You are asking these men and women to do something that is extremely difficult to do considering their environments and circumstances. It's simply easy for you or anyone to say it when you dont live it. Sure, there are many who have eclipsed those beginnings and gone on to do great things. It is not impossible. But more often than not...these kids are drowned in it.
So I ask you, you expect a kid from the hood, who has never been taught better, who doesnt have even a frame of reference for anything better. Hasnt been schooled on the hate that the "N" word and the "B" word can create but has heard it constantly growing up. Who decides that perhaps his lyrics can get him out of that state, to be able to rap without using those words? You're not being realistic.

Kamikaze, you're sending me into a land of hyperbole, in an attempt to make a point. Are you telling me that every rapper and comedian who uses ugly words comes from poverty, and has had no chance to learn the history of those words? Has had no opportunity to assess their creation in the light of present day culture along with history? I don't know much about rap, but I do know that not all of these guys grew up in such circumstances that they are entirely ignorant of the meaning of the words they use. These people are using words and music to create and express. Is it too much to ask that they use that power responsibly?

I reject the notion that every rapper, or even most rappers, use the N-word without knowing it's history and association.

And, Kamikaze, I'm aware that I seem to be some sort of "exception' to the notion that "old people" aren't worth listening to. What I'm trying to point out to you is that when you complain about "old people" as a group, you are stereotyping, in a huge way, which is one of the things that angers you when it happens to you.

kate I will defend hiphop to the hilt..Why? Because it gets attacked unjustly too often...And that is primarily because society loves to point the finger instead of placing blame where it solely belongs. In each and every individual home in America! WE get bullied because most feel there are not enough articulate, intelligent, well-spoken brothers and sisters to adequately defend what we do so we are easy targets. I have foud Kate that young people are MUCH more open and much less likely to generalize that those of your generation. Some of these rappers are simply products of their environment. the results of households, parents, teachers, preachers,...a society at large that FAILED THEM. You act as if these people just arbitrarily get up everyday and choose to use those words, or choose to rap about drugs, or choose to even sell drugs in their communites it is a result of a cause kate.

I don't use the word, and I've been known to front anyone and everyone (from family to people of color) for using the word, yet I understand the need to reclaim it. This is not an argument for whites, though, we just need to stay out of it. Somebody wants to argue about the use of honky, even though it's offensiveness is questionable, we can talk. Just using that for an example.

Meantime, here's another interesting article on the subject if the online censor will let me post it:

http://www.blackagendareport.com/007/007d_man_yr_nigga_problem.php "it's your *n* problem, not hip-hop's"

Sorry, I can't remember how to do links in here....

That said, I love Leonard Pitts and can see both sides of this argument (being on the outside looking in).

Kamikaze, I'm not saying that rappers don't need to rap about drugs, about violence, etc. What I object to is your notion that rappers use the N word because they are too poor to know its history. And, I personally would like the whole world to quit using the N word for a decade or so, because I think it's hate-laden and is not presently a word that is 'recoverable.'

Also, hip hop does attacked unjustly. But, from what I've seen, that genre leaves itself wide open to just attacks as well. We've been down this road before. Hell, society goes down this road about every 10 to 20 years from what I can tell. it's not new for the music of the young to be attacked. Get over it. It means you're doing something right.

Enjoy and produce your music all you want. Just don't expect me to support your use of the N word. And by you, I mean the collective 'you' that includes any musician, of any race and any genre, who uses what I feel are hate filled lyrics.

Great point kate...and by and large the rappers that exist that did not come from humble beginnings DO NOT use the word! You're right! Ironically, there is a contingent of artists who Ive never heard use the word and for the most part it is those who grew up in a an environment where they learned its meaning. Im talking about the OTHER end of the spectrum. You have some who didnt grow up like that, KNOW the meaning of the word and use it to show a transferrence of power in the word. Because again...if tomorrow all rappers stopped using the word do you think it would no longer be uttered? If all Black folks removed the word from their vocabulary TOMORROW do you think the word will disappear?

You're both making interesting points. One thing to consider, Kamikaze, is that in your use of generalizations, you are are running the serious risk of making many rappers look like they are incapable of rising above what society has done to them. That kind of message to our young people concerns me mightily.

It's one thing to defend *why* disturbing things show up in rap lyrics -- I do that, too -- but then to paint every rapper with such a broad brush, making it sound like they are incapable of not rapping about pimpin' and such seems rather insulting and degrading in its own right.

And, for the record, you are closer in age to Kate than you are many of the young people that she is most concerned about. So the "your generation" thing doesn't work here, Kaze.

Kamikaze, you are also not listening very closely to Kate's arguments; she's not saying what you think she is saying, but you're so busy being offended by any possible criticism about misogyny in rap that you are kneejerking your response. And in so doing, you yourself is the one who is selling rappers short.

I think it would disappear alot more quickly if all black folks dropped it from their vocabulary. Because, to my knowledge, the *only* socially acceptable use of the term is from the mouth of a black person, either to other black people, or in song lyrics or a comedy routine.

I'm not sure what that would mean for Chappelle's "The Nigga Family" sketch...

Tom and Donna:

my point of the post was to ask what the concept of bootstrap white conservative values is as related above. Tom clarified what he meant for me.

Kamikaze and I posted at the same time. His last post mitigates some of what I just said.

Personally, by the way, I'm not nearly as concerned about "the word" as I am the images of women being marketed as prostitutes.

and Luc...LOL Bill Cosby has degenerated into a senile old man. I love and respect what hes done and i only hope i can one day achieve what he has but...He's like this "eccentric" uncle that I have that just likes to hear himself talk. He sits in a corner and complains about everything. Everybody is wrong. 10 minutes later he's forgotten what he was ranting about and starts all over again. We listen but don't pay THAT much attention. That's where Bill Cosby is now with me. He's gone completely apes--t crazy! He's a maniac outta control and someone needs to give him a show so he can stay busy. LOL

Then 'Fish, you should have asked that, rather than make such a goofy statement.

When are you going to learn? (Smile)

And Kamikaze, you probably could be more convincing if you refrained from such personal insults of Cosby. I suspect you would be a bit offended if one of the white bloggers here called him "apesh!t crazy."

I suggest you can argue his specific points without stooping to such depths.

...And my question still remains...

..."if tomorrow all rappers stopped using the word do you think it would no longer be uttered? If all Black folks removed the word from their vocabulary TOMORROW do you think the word will disappear?"

Donna, the women being marketed thing gets my goat as well. But, I was trying to stay on topic.

Kamikaze says he'll defend hip hop to the hilt, because it gets "unjustly attacked." I'll defend women to the hilt, because they get "unjustly attacked".

I'll defend women to the hilt, because they get "unjustly attacked". -Kate

amen to that, Kate.

"I suspect you would be a bit offended if one of the white bloggers here called him "apesh!t crazy.""

...Not at all Donna. That would be like saying I would automatically defend a "black" person against the criticisms of a "white" person...Cmon now Im actually not sure how to take that one.

But... That's my opinion of Cosby as it stands today. If he decides to stop the finger pointing and listen for 5 minutes then we can get somewhere. I even wrote a column on this a whiiiiilllllle back.

... I call it like I see it. But I apologize.

Kate and I have similar mindsets on this and many other things, which is why I like her. I'm beginning to think my frat brother is full of shat in his argument. Lots of words and very little real substance. Smile. No offense.

Law Clerk I believe Em and Nem has used the n word many times. He's probably a white boy who all the rappers will give a pass because he's proven he's a real rapper and equal opportunity abuser. After all he is what he say he is, if he weren't, why would he say he is. I like him because he's a rebel, very creative and anti-establishment, but I also think he's near crazy.

Not know what the word means? How can you grow up in Mississippi and not know what the word means? If you do know what the word means (and I'm sure you do) and know that young kids don't know what the word means, how can you use it in good conscience? It's never going to mean anything other than it does nor will the misogynistic words in rap lyrics mean anything other than they do. They're used intentionally and they put people down.

Kamikaze, I'm not a moron. Words don't disappear from usage overnight.

Actually, that's not what I was saying at all, Kamikaze.

The issue isn't whether you should agree with Cosby—I do, and I don't, for instance—it's whether calling him "apesh!t crazy" hurts your credibility in these debates.

Yes, Eminem does use the N-word, and has been offensive in many other ways. I still like him in some ways. Rap is a curious animal.

I really don't think the argument should be about offensiveness—I think the bigger question is ask is where the line is between reflecting the culture and causing it further harm by propagating stereotypes and harmful beliefs (especially in young people about themselves).

The reflection argument, without actual further reflection, is simply too simplistic and borders on irresponsible. This really comes down to choices—and rappers need to think seriously about the effects of their choices, just like the rest of us do. They don't get a pass, just as they are not responsible for all of society's ills.

"Lots of words and very little real substance. Smile."

..What more substance could you possibly be looking for? Think Ive made my point clear...and actually we all will have to agree to disagree on this one. These hiphop discussions are fantastic but I doubt Ive ever really changed anyone's mind. But the discussion is good.
...My words may not hold weight for you but on my end all I ever hear is... hiphop is bad. the language is bad. They should just up and stop using the "N" word. and they should up and just stop using the "B"word. It has to be THAT easy right?...The rappers are misogynistic. Theyre violent. they are ignorant. They are thugs. Why don't they stop using this..and why dont they stop saying that..They can stop if they want to. or they do it for the money or even the far-reaching..its not real music(not used often anymore)
..But never any real solutions or real understanding for what some of them experience...

"Words don't disappear from usage overnight "

..Of course not..but my problem is..and will be..that the FIRST place you look is with the "rappers". That's it! thats the basis of my disgust! If we know that the word wont dispppear overnight it sure as hell wont disppear any quicker if the majority of the rappers who use it quit cold turkey. The problem is deeper than that. In fact..;.If all rappers AND balck folks in general stopped using the word as a rule, the word won't disappear...Kate...the word will NEVER disappear...thats my point. Its use is not exclusive to Black folks...thats why.

To put people down? "What's up my n-word?" is a put down? And, we all know that words dont really mean anything in rap until real rappers like K-Fed use them in their artwork.

Why are we agreeing to disagree when we actually agree on much of this? What I'm challenging you to do is not to blanketly defend all rap content, and negate the potential effects of rappers' decisions, as you do not wish me and others to blanketly condemn all rap and tough rap lyrics.

And, no, that's none all you ever hear, and you know it. Not here on this site, not in the popular culture, not even from all white people. You are being hyperbolic, and it's not helping your case.

You're in the position to lead an important discussion on this topic, but if all you're after is to get people to lay down all arms against anything said in rap lyrics, and put aside their/our concerns about the potential negative effects on our culture, you're not going to lead that discussion. That's just defensiveness.

I understand the money question; however, if y'all never think it can be different, and that less offensive rap lyrics will ever "sell," then they surely won't. Had the Freedom Riders believed that buses would never have been integrated, they never would have been.

Consider this a challenge for you to lead on this one. That doesn't mean censoring all sensitive rap lyrics, but it does mean getting out in front and trying to influence the marketplace in every way you can. And you won't do that with blanket, defensive attacks on people who criticize rap lyrics.

Kaze, I don't know how you can disagree with what Donna just said in the 10:52 am post.

Kaze, we black folks have always been in trouble in this country. We have to fight to overcome odds, estrangement, stereotypes, hatred, racism, and being unwanted by so many, not limited to whites either. We can't afford to suffer from too much self-induced malady or harm. No one can really save us but us. Everybody is so busy trying to save themselves.

The N-word can't be defended and rap is growing to a point where it can't be defended without some responsibility and modifications. Change (nickels, dimes, guarters, half-dollars, whole dollars, et al) is what's driving this machine, not a reflection of culture, any elucidation/illumination, or revelation. We're not blind without rappers. And the seeker/pursuers of this change don't give a damn who they hurt trying to get it. And that's the truth.

Some rappers have become like Master - the end justifes the means. No matter how much Master said he meant no harm and liked/loved us. We knew Massa was full of shat because we saw the products and fruits to prove otherwise.

Donna, honestly...It amounts to a freedom of speech issue for me. Im in tune with that even moreso after my run-in at Millsaps and the subsequent debate that stemmed from it. I will forever defend rappers right to say whatever they wish to say, however they wish to say it because its their right! whether I agree with it or not..thats not the issue.
..I don't agree with everything I hear in hiphop. I dont even like everything I hear in hiphop and I have strong opinions on those. I think some of it is just plain stupid and the "cocaine" rap genre has gone too far. There are some things being said that I would NEVER on my angriest day say..however, thats me. I can't condemn or chastize another of my peers because that is what THEY choose to do. But..what ive learned in networking with these folks and going to places where they came up and meeting the people that theyve met and experiencing what they've experienced i have a much better understanding of that content. That's an understanding that you can ONLY get by being there and coming up in it. And for the most part those who attack it do so from a safe place. Those who did live it and still attack it are not being fair to those who may not have been so lucky.
...My point is...until we change some of the conditions that these folks came up in then the rappers who speak it will always be popular. and quite honestly they are going to do what the consumer wants. When the majority of rap consumers say We no longer want to hear THOSE type songs or THOSE words in our music give us more...the will continue to get wha they get. And again i may not be doing it but I will forever defend their right to say what they want.

Is "What's up my n-word?" a put down? You bet.

You're calling someone one of the vilest, most racist words in the English language, whether you mean it 'affectionately' or not.

What's wrong with saying, "What's up, my man?" "What's up, bro?" "What's up, friend?"

It's even worse when you add the possessive "my".

Think about the context in which the phrase "my n-word" was used historically by white racists - and not long ago - and I don't just mean slaveowners. "You need that roof fixed, ma'am - I'll get my n**** to do that for you."

You don't seem to realize what Mississippi was like not even thirty years ago. Revitalizing/republicizing the word and trying to change its basic meaning/connotation hasn't worked and won't work.

Kaze, that said I will still defend the good things about rap and rappers. I certainly agree there has been much unjustified castigation concerning rap and rappers. Not all of it is unjustified and unwarranted.

What I want to know from Kamikaze is, what kind of recognition would make you feel that hip hop generation is not looked down upon? Do you mean jobs? social recognition? Or just general lack of criticizing and stereotyping? Because to me it seems that the general culture SUPPORTS this hip hop movement by buying the discs and the merch like crazy. But maybe it's a hypocritical support? Like, I'll buy your disc and love your music but look down on you if I see you hanging out in my town?

I will forever defend rappers right to say whatever they wish to say,

Me, too. And you're right: That's not the issue. I will also defend private citizens' "right" to speak up against any speech—especially of the commercial nature—that they believe may be harming society. And as you know, only the government can take away your "right" to free speech, and that issue is not on the table here at all. I'll walk to the ends of the earth with you to stop that from happening.

...My point is...until we change some of the conditions that these folks came up in then the rappers who speak it will always be popular. and quite honestly they are going to do what the consumer wants. When the majority of rap consumers say We no longer want to hear THOSE type songs or THOSE words in our music give us more...

With due respect, that's excuse-making. Reminds me a bit of the white newspaper editors back in the '50s and '60s who didn't approve of Jim Crow, but who said that it didn't make any sense to try to change it overnight and to just let conditions change as they would. They also were concerned about what sold—in their newspapers and to their advertisers. Rocking the boat harder would have cost them money. One of the most daring white editors of the time, Hazel Brannon Smith, died near broke because she persisted anyway, and even printed the Mississippi Free Press, the anti-Jim Crow paper here in Jackson. (The Jackson Advocate was segregationist then as well.)

So, you have choices. Follow the market (which rappers help everyday to create). Use your music to help actually change the conditions. Or, do what most of the white newspaper editors did back then—just rake in the money and wait for the market to change itself. If it ever does.

And those questions have nothing to do with defending free speech. I also defend the Klan's *right* to march wearing their hoods and their masks on public property while denigrating black people—but I do everything I can to change the conditions that allow their negatives to grow and harm others. And that includes putting out a newspaper that dares to not follow every easy commercial avenue.

I will also continue to challenge rappers who use their talents to denigrate women (and their own race), even as I defend to the end their *right* to free speech and encourage them to make more great hip-hop music that doesn't stoop to the level of human denigration in order to profit.

No Ray the "N" word cant be defended...Not trying to, but the reality is...to me...Its a WORD. Its not going anywhere, even if rappers and black folks as a whole eventually move away from it. IT will still exist and someone somewhere will have a "meltdown" and itll rear its head again. You hit the nail on the head...and that is where the discussion can begin and almost end...When the CONSUMER decides one day(and I do think it will come eventually) that they are tired and no longer entertained by the rap that society hates, the climate will change. It will shift when our dollars shift to other more positive artists. The day that Common comes out and sells 700,000 copies first week and debuts at number 1, the labels will tell those other guys to take a hike and the more negative music will be relegated back to the underground where it came from. But until then....a kid who grows up in the rougher part of town is going to gravitate to the harder edged music. music that sounds like what he hears in his hood. unitl that kid can overcome poverty and empower himself through education he won't know that there is better music out there. or better yet he'll prefer a Common over something else

Really, Nobody likes K-fed?

and Donna..funny thing. that kind of overlaps the discussion on casey's blog LOL. something me and skip always quibble over. And Again..I touched on this on the radio program the other day. Im gonna find it and cut and paste cuz I dont want to lose the punch of what I said. uno momento....

Here's part of it...

..Why does conviction mean you have to be broke? Is it wrong for anyone to want to be paid for their hard work. Do you love your job enough to do it everday even after hours and get no check? Ask yourself that? We're in the Bush era Queen and you cant fault man or woman for trying to make a dollar. Its what ya need to buy food, clothes, and water. the bare necessities. You're again asking SOMEONE ELSE...not yourself by the way to sacrifice themselves and their financial well-being. Martin should have got paid AND Malcolm deserved to get paid. As I told the caller on the morning show Monday. If anyone's prepared to clothe my kids for me. Buy my groceries and gas or pay my bills and the like then Ill denounce all that is crunk TODAY and bring some of the old "Crooked Lettaz" Kaze back. No prob.

..Why does conviction mean you have to be broke? Is it wrong for anyone to want to be paid for their hard work. Do you love your job enough to do it everday even after hours and get no check?

Yes, if it's meaningful enough. I did that here for about two years, I think, doing everything we could outside of here to make enough to make this thing work so that it would start paying off at some point. We could easily have sold out and started "selling" stories like some other publications do. Or, did an entertainment rag for Northeast Jackson that ignored the rest of the community.

The bigger issues, though, is that you're making it sound like the only way you can feed your kids is by performing lyrics potentially harmful to other people's kids. I don't believe you—and I say that with full knowledge that I'm from a culture in which even poor white folks have more opportunities than AFrican Americans traditionally.

Laurel. Hiphop is a billion dollar industry and I can go into a whole 'nother rant about how we as artists STILL dont see our fair share..Thats part of why the MAP coalition was formed. I realize that hiphop will always be looked down upon by some and loved by others. It comes with the territory and my skin is not as thin as it may seem. But when the attacks come form places or folks that truly don't understand whats happenin with some of our young people..and then dont even TRY to understand...that angers me.

Yes folks are buying albums and merchandise(not as much these days because of internet..but that too is another blog altogether) but if you look at them (rap albums) across the board most of them are chocked full of the colorful language that you say we spew. Why is that? Obviously somewhere there is a market for it on a commercial level. Sure there's a market for skinhead rock too but you get the idea. Skinhead rock doesnt rake in the dollars rap albums do every week. Its about changing a mindset in our kids. NOw am I prepared to starve to change that climate, probably not. Am I prepared to watch my kids go hungry or unclothed to change it. HELL NO. Am I prepared to go bust my hump making a dollar for someone else because Im trying to make a change with my music? Nope. When those of us (and Im included) can put out our more thought-provoking, conscious, groundbreaking against-the-norm music (which I have) AND get your support the day the album drops AND get radioplay AND still eat off it...We'll do it!

The problem is that you can use that same reasoning - well, I have to pay my bills and this is how I get money to do that - to justify anything - selling heroin, running a concentration camp, carjacking, murder to steal, defrauding pensioners, selling grain alcohol to the homeless - name a crime and someone will say, but I needed the money! If you feel fine using a word which denigrates others who have the same skin color you do, sure, it's your free speech right to do so, but I and many others - including many who have the same skin color you do - will continue to see the word as a vile, racist putdown.

"The bigger issues, though, is that you're making it sound like the only way you can feed your kids is by performing lyrics potentially harmful to other people's kids. I don't believe you—"

Donna, Im one of the tame ones as any fan of my music will attest. And Ive always made albums that appealed to different types. I always have those "conscious" songs on my albums. ITs where I come from and what I first started recording. I have all of the elements in my work, violence, drugs, sex, profanity. I don't hide that fact. The worst Ive probably done is tell folks to "bust they heads to the white meat" But... the mass consumers told me they loved that record. ITs been one of if not THE biggest record in the south in the past 3 years.
,,SURE, there's plenty I can do...Ive got a degree and a wealth of experiences and connections if thats what I WANTED to do. But my passion is hiphop. Its what I do its how I live and I love it. ITs provided me a living and given me the opportunity to be my own boss. Run my own business, and make an impact in my community. THIS has been and this is how I feed my young ones. So success in my field becomes mandatory. But actually that speaks to a personal issue. That's what "I" choose to do, others may choose another way. And thats cool.

Luc I dont even wanna tread on THAT issue. Because, you're EXACTLY right. Right or wrong. That IS the explanation most folks have given doing some of those very same things you named. Cant argue with that. So you'll probably give me the old " they should go get a job like everybody else" answer or the " well you didnt have to break the law to do it" answer. Point is 100% of the kids, ex-dope dealers, addicts, and jackers I come in contact with on a daily said...if they had a chance to do something else they would...If they could have gotten a job or were offered jobs they would gladly take them. You're probably one of those who think folks get up and commit crimes just for the hell of it. Nope. theyre either sick (with some sort of drug addiction), cold, hungry, or broke(with no education and no job in sight).

I literally don't have time to get into this further right now, Kaze, not an excuse - I'm working - might have time later today, but this part of what you just wrote is true:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nope. theyre either sick (with some sort of drug addiction), cold, hungry, or broke(with no