GREATEST RAPPER OF ALL TIME! Biggie vs Tupac

I'm not one for sweeping generalizations anyway, so "Greatest Rapper of All Time" doesn't sit well with me because of that. Reminds me of when Napoleon Dynamite says, "This is pretty much the worst video ever made," and his brother says, "Like anyone can even KNOW that!"

That said, I am a fan of both rappers fairly equally. But the difference to me is, Biggie made music for me to dance to, while Tupac made music for me to think to.

To me it's neither!? But I am a strong advocate of west indian style curry chicken as to someone from the delta and they want their momma's fried chicken! (My grandmother was from the bahamas and can light a pot of curry up!)

It is all about delivery and both of them were heavy weights at the top of their game. If you go off sales you would have to say Tupac, but if you were a East Coast dead head someone will say hands down Biggie.

To me a true measure of a great MC, would be how many underground mixtapes they did for local DJ's and biggie was "Notorius" for doing underground mixtapes for some of the hottest DJ's in NYC!

But I got to give credit where credit is due, Tupac's Urban Legend is way bigger than Biggie's ever will! He is the Kurt Cobain of the hiphop world (minues the suicide) by the way people were affected by his death and the admiration for his music.

But as far as skills, some people like Mario Batali and some like Emeril Lagasse - they are both respected cooks in their own right.

Greatest Rapper, MC, story teller - KRS-1 a.k.a the teacha, philospher, blastmasta - he don't need record sales! He has them crowd rocking skills! Period! If you seen him at the House of Blues - you might understand!

While I'm more of a Biggie fan that Tupac, I will acknowledge Tupac as being the better rapper. Some of Biggie's music will last through the test of time; just that Tupac has a larger pool of songs that could last even more. Also, he spoke more of what's going on in the black community, while Biggie talked about getting more bling and women.

In all respect to Pac and Biggie, the greatest rapper of all-time is Jay-Z. I know he doesn't have the credibility of coming out of the mid-90s, and well, the credibility that comes with being gunned down, but I'd hold the Black Album against any single rap album Pac or Biggie put out. Easy.

Bryan, believe me I feel ya. Ask anyone who knows me and they will tell there is no bigger Jigga fan than I. I love the guy. I know that he has manipulated the rap game and made it work for him. His flow, his style, everything the dude is hot (and if it were not for kamikaze and maybe a little broad by the name of beyonce - he'd likely be Mr. Mississippi by now if I had my way). But he owns the title of Best Rapper Alive. He owns that, but of all time, he doesn't fit. If there was no Pac though, I'd probably agree with you.

Jigga! Yes indeed! If you like it, I love it!

I think you guys are going off record sales though.

But this is how I see the cats y'all named!

Jigga - NY suave and witty

2pac - tormented soul caught between gangster life vs. a sensative conscious

biggie - rhyme kicker (too short of time to give a yea or nea)

My boy - KRS One - takes all challengers (will BATTLE anyone), gives you a message _ if you want to hear something deep and monumental by him (enclose yourself in a room with a serious system or put on some head phones and listen to "My Philosophy!"- turn that cut up to the highest level)

for some "heads" - I am shocked none of you even mentioned Nas!?

Now y'all really opened up a can of worms?

According to Kanye West, the best rapper of all time is Kanye West. ;o) And if you ask me (though I can't imagine why anyone would), he could be right.

I have tried, but I just can't get into Kanye. Please don't hate/throw things at me. I just don't get all the hype. Maybe I'm just old school. One of my all-time favorite rappers is Q-tip. I don't know what that says about me! But I like him!

Well,

I am a little biased because I think that the "greatest of all time" has to not only rhyme, drop knowledge, change the game, last, but, he also has to make my head nod.

Biggie couldn't really teach me anything. I respect Tupac's passion and conscience, but the whole "Thuglife" theme either I didn't get, or was evidence that he sold out, im my opinion.

The Greatest rapper of all time is Q-Tip from A Tribe called Quest. He told great stories in his rhymes, had his own unique flow, brought a love of music back to the game, drops serious consciousness and has lasted for many years. While there may be more political rappers to come down the pike, they won't have the appeal or cred of Q-tip.

The others, (Jay-Z, Nas, etc.) are too market driven to be considered "artists". They are talented, but they can be bought for the right price and that just kills it for me when it comes to talk of the "G.O.A.T."

My humble opinion.

I like Kanye, but he has a long way to go for him to be considered the greatest rapper ever. I think Andre 3000 may have a leg up on him.

Hey, great minds Blackwatch! ;)

Blackwatch! You gonna say Nas is market driven!?

Oh man! Come'on man!!!!!!!

I got to disagree with you on that one.

But - to your "Tip" comment - TCQ were my boys, Low End Theory is a definate classic! But without native tongues and tribe - his solo career just didn't tickle my fancy, not saying he doesn't have skills - but ah, being 33yrs young and having some Technic SL1210Mk2's at the crib, with the voltage switch I may add, I been in the arena for a minute.

But all this is opinion, even mine - so I ain't mad at you, if that is how you feel that is how you feel.

The G.O.A.T discussion has a lot of variables that make it hard to annoint "one" rapper as the greatest. Is it lyrics? (Rakim, Biggie or Nas), Consistency? (LL Cool J, Icecube, or Jay Z), Imapact?(Tupac), Creativity? (Fresh Prince or Kanye), Sales? (Lil Wayne, Jay Z) or a combination of some of these?(Ludacris, T.I., Common). Its simply too hard to determine a "true" winner. Kind of like deciding who the greatest President was, or the best quarterback of all time. Everyone will have their opinion and valid arguments to back it up! Biggie, Tupac, Jay Z, KRS, Kool G. Rap, Grandmaster Caz, I could make a case for all of them for one reason or another. But the discussion is always entertaining.

You have consider the time frame, length of career, number of albums, what state the industry was in etc. a lor of things. I personally think that Canibus line for line(based on pure technical spit) has not been matched in vocab, delivery, metaphors, or diction by any other. He wa an anomoly. But he picked horrible beats, didnt handle his business, embarrased an icon before he himself was firmly established, and underachieved sales-wise even after his much hyped debut.

obviously this is totally subjective, but just to play along:

i define "greatest" as being not just about pure skill, but also impact and acheivement. with that said, I would lean towards Pac because of his social significance. even his most thugged-out records had deeper meanings to them if you listen to the words. Me Against the World is my favorite hip hop album of all time, with Illmatic a close second. Flawless all the way through with a deep social message. biggie is up there. his natural flow was nicer than Pac's, and his wordplay is the sickest i'd ever heard up until that point, but he only had two albums, so he can't really be number one. that's like saying lebron james is the best basketball player of all time - it might technically be true, but the resume isn't long enough.

i would also include andre 3000 on this list. he often gets overlooked because the vast majority of his career has been shared with big boi, but he has the illest metaphors ever. period.

Now if you want to add a twist to a debate, kaze' - put your index finger in the air on that one!

I could never understand why Canibus went after LL!? You never strike first at that joker, because all you gonna do is make him mad!!! He sho' performs better angry!!!

Good point - six, on that one!

And arrrgh..I try and I try to NOT get into this discussion but its killing me. Just because you sell records does NOT mean you have sold out or you ARENT a true artist. There is and has never been a rule stating that in order for you to be respected as a creative mind you have to remain poor or of average income. The inference that Any artist of Jay Z's or Wayne's or 50's ilk that is commercially sucessful can be "bought" is unsubstantiated. even Q-Tip did commericals and movies. and mind you, at their height ATCQ (after the Midnight Marauders album) was arguably the biggest hiphop act in the country(they went Platinum) did that make them sell-outs. Artists content will be different and because Jay Z or Biggie went Platinum with theirs, Fresh Prince, Biz Markie, Heavy D, De La, Tribe, Latifah, all went platinum at some point with their content.

As an aritst, I believe artists should be able to eat and provide for them and thiers. Visual artists, poets, dancers, all of aour creative artists deserve to get fat off their talent. for you to say Pac was "selling out" with his Thug Life mantra is...well...wow! I have no words lol.

Lord T is clearly the best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5aEGO1Ueyc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5aEGO1Ueyc

Now the "selling out" thing brings in a new argument.

The thing about rap and hip hop - there is always the credibility thing, the undergound essence.

Look at outkast - with Southernplayalistic
common - can I borrow a dollar
LL Cool J - Radio
Jay Z - reasonable Doubt

I can keep on naming names, but I want y'all to see where I am coming from with this. There was a gritty-ness to them, it was fresh and it was "ours" - but once that platinum status hits, it seems like the edge and the grittyness is gone.

I think - people then come with the "sell out" phrase then, because the newness, freshness or edge is gone.

But, you can never fault a artist for getting their pay day. But you can question the passion after the pay day?

Queen - I love that you bring Jerry McGuire and QUAN into a talk about greatness in rap - way cool. And I like that your definition of greatness includes giving back. I tend to agree with that view on greatness, though many people don't. The view of skill alone to me doesn't make greatness.

Other than that I am enjoying this 'cause I know very little about rap and want to know more.

Kaze and baquan,

I note that Nas is commercial , not to take away from is artistry and creativity, or record sales, but simply from the "Oochie Wally" period. That seemed way out of character for him, and it seemed to be a blatant attempt to tap into the hedonism that was selling big at the time (with Jay-Z's "Big Pimpin'" just wreckin' the charts).

I agree an artist can sell millions of records, become filthy rich, and not sell out. But, one thing that has to remain is the truthfulness to the self. This is why I scratch my head at Tupac and "thuglife". While gritty commentary is needed about the plight of urban youth, Tupac seemed to relish in the image, rather than the art/message. I ain't doubting his passion, creativity, and writing skills. But,to actualy engage in the whole "east Coast- west Coast" thing and then to go out the way he went out, was totally out of character with what he understood the issues with urban youth to be. It seemed that money drove those decisions, not artistry. That, to me, defines sellout, not material success, but what you do to get it.

Blackwatch!!!!!!!

No love for the Short Dogg? Too Short, on the grind since 1983, 25 years. No life time achievement award :-)? Does a brother have to get shot or give up pimpin' :-)?

Yes, QUAN equals all of the above!!!! This meets greatness and compliments it well.

You know what Whitley?

My brotha loves Short Dog, I am 33 and my brother is 37 - he said he loved the "funk" your boy delivered.

I was more into Native Tongues, Hieroglyphics, Def Squad, Hit Squad.

But I will give Short his props, he layed the foundation for cats like Dre, Snoop and the rest of the NWA tree. I think Ice-T should be included as well.

When I was in my early teens I actually liked P.M. Dawn, but I don't know if they really count...

Tom - they did a clip on PM Dawn on that show on VH1 called, "Where are they now!?"

They are still doing their thing!!! lol!!!!

Awww, you kiddies are so cute.

Rakim and KRS-One are the embodiment of hip-hop. There is no one greater.

Pac, Biggie, and Jay don't even make the top ten.