[Breaking] Killen Sentenced to 60 Years

Mercy would be reserved for the repentant, and Killen hasn't and will never show that. Got what he deserved.

Iron is a genius.

ÖSo how is it that we're left with one old man selected to atone for all of Mississippi's sins? Is Killen really the only one with blood on his hands?

Hereís what could be done:

The Arkansas Delta Peace and Justice Center suggests the Mississippi Attorney General should tell the four surviving individuals who were convicted in the federal trial in 1967 on charges of conspiracy to deny civil rights that:

a. The State of Mississippi is intent on convicting guilty parties.

b. The State of Mississippi prefers to convict those guilty parties who have never served time (which in effect could exclude them)

c. That if they fully cooperate, they will not be pursued, or at least treated leniently.

d. Otherwise, they will be vigorously prosecuted and the State of Mississippi is confident they will be convicted as they were in 1967, and that they will spend the remaining years of their lives incarcerated.


Of course, this approach would not work with Sam Bowers since he is serving a life sentence for the murder of Vernon Dahmer. But it could work with the other three who were convicted in 1967: Jimmy Arledge, Billy Wayne Posey, and Jimmy Snowden. The approach might work even with some of the lesser figures who should have been convicted in 1967 but were not:

Olen Burrage , James Thomas "Pete" Harris, Tommy Horne, Jimmy Lee Townsend, Richard Willis.

And what about all of the victims whoíve never received the justice due them by the state of Mississippi? There are so manyÖ Birdia Keglar, Jo-Etha Collier, James Edward Calhoune, Cleve McDowellÖ the list goes on..

If we accept no justice in Mississippi, where do we expect it?

Susan Klopfer
http://themiddleoftheinternet.com

Ironghost, it sounds like we're on the same page! This is what I said last night on another post:

"My mom said something interesting today. Someone at work told her that the Lord could have let Killen live just long enough to pay for his crime. Can you imagine? You're 80 years old, and you figure you'd be dead before anyone can do anything to you. Next thing you know, they're rolling you to jail in a wheelchair with your oxygen tank rolling behind you. For all we know, God could let him live another ten years just so he can sit in jail a while before he expires. If he never repented for what he did, what else can you expect? As the old saying goes:

Oh, what a tangled web we weave
When first we practice to deceive!"

Good comment, L.W. Shakespeare.

Interesting thought ...rolling into jail with your tank behind you. Anyway, today my focus is on the victims. And not even those who we all know about, Michael Schwerner, James Chaney and Andrew Goodman, but people like Birdia Keglar who was killed by the Klan in 1966. She was decapitated in front of her friends. The crime was explained as a "car wreck" and there are people alive today in Charleston and Greenwood who did this. They are still alive. Three months later, her son - who was trying to find out what happened to his mother and had contacted the FBI and Justice Department - was killed in a mysterious house fire (after he was hit on the head and passed out).

There are so many of these victims around Mississippi. No justice for them. At least the state's AG could charge the others who are still hanging around.

Where is justice?
Susan Klopfer

Yes, Susan; i'm all for getting the rest of them. It's time to make a change; and we are the peple who can do it. It's time to pay the new State of Mississippi. If we just do this we could render William Faulkner's famous words - the past is not dead, the past is not even the past - worthless and without effect right here in his home state. I hope his ghost hears this. As far as for killens, in a few years, maggots will be dancing on his eyelids and getting ready to feast. However, I'm not convinced that maggots are without standards. Even maggots might refuse to eat of his trash. Finally, I ask the Great Almighty to forgive me of my hatred toward this man, for I'm convinced that hatred is wrong even for a unrepenting man like him.

"It's time to make a change; and we are the peple who can do it."

So, Ray, are you a Winans fan? You know that Ron died, right? I think the memorial service is today.

Anyway, I burst out in laughter when you said, "in a few years, maggots will be dancing on his eyelids and getting ready to feast." It reminds me of a rhyme I heard on TV once:

The worms crawl in,
The worms crawl out,
The worms play pinochle on your snout.

The way I feel at the moment, I would prefer if the worms played soccer or field hockey. However, I understand how you feel about the hatred thing. If you could shift your thinking to hating what he did instead of hating him, it will be better on you. We must remember who the major influence is behind all of this: Satan himself.

Who's Next?

"It's a good start but it's not the finish." Steve Schwerner, brother of Michael Schwerner, 12:10 p.m. Central Time, June 23, 2004 (commenting on the 30-year sentence of Preacher Killen during Court TV interview).

Horace Doyle Barnett's Nov. 20, 1964, confession to the FBI
From FBI documents

FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION

Date: 11/24/64

The following is a signed statement which was furnished by HORACE DOYLE BARNETTE on November 20, 1964:

Springhill, La.

Nov. 20, 1964

"I, Horace Doyle Barnette, do hereby make this free and voluntary statement to Special Agent Henry Rask and Special Agent James A. Wooten, who have identified themselves to me to be special agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation and Special Agent Henry Rask have informed me that I do not have to make a statement, that any statement made by me can be used against me in a court of law and that I am entitled to consult with an attorney before making this statement and that if I can not afford an attorney and I am required to appear in court, the court will appoint one for me. That no force, threats or promises were made to induce me to make this statement. I presently reside at Cullen, La. I am 26 years old and was born on September 11, 1938, at Plain Dealing, La.
"On June 21, 1964 about 8:00 P.M., I was having supper at Jimmy Arledge's house, Meridian, Mississippi. Travis Barnette called Arledge on the telephone and told Arledge that the Klan had a job and wanted to know if Arledge and I could go. Arledge asked me if I could go and we went to Akins trailer park on Highway 80 in Meridian, Miss. We did not know what the job was.

"Upon arriving at Akins trailer park we were met by Preacher Killen, Mr. Akins, Jim Jordan and Wayne. I do not know Wayne's last name, but I do know...

The rest is posted on the Neshobanews blog - http://neshobanews.blogspot.com

Susan Klopfer
http://themiddleoftheinternet.com

Thanks L. W. I hate what he did and him, too; but am trying to rid myself of the later. Surely, I'm a Winans fan. I'm a lawyer who wanted to be a great musician and writer. I'm still working on the later and am hopeful God gives me the subject matter, characters, plot, and length of time that will allow me to succeed at one of them. Most people who know me happens to think I'm a good lawyer too. I'm prouder to be a Buffalo Soldier trotting through the land, trying to use my few skills and talents to change things for the better, while I live.

To those interested, I've started posting names and pictures (when I have them) of people lynched in Mississippi. Lawyers might be interested in Cleve McDowell's picture and brief story I've posted. Anyone with information on these and other murders please email me at

The list is very long, so I'll be posting these the rest of the day.

Susan Klopfer

Almost forgot, the postings are at

http://neshobanews.blogspot.com

susan

Has anyone asked Mr Hood how much further he's going? I imagine there's lots of people who'd love for him to keep up the good work and keep going.

...and it'd be a shame to slow down now. :)

Susan I am loving your posts, very logical. I will defintely be looking forward to seeing the info you have on the MS lynching victims.

"To those interested, I've started posting names and pictures (when I have them) of people lynched in Mississippi. Lawyers might be interested in Cleve McDowell's picture and brief story I've posted. Anyone with information on these and other murders please email me..."

That is great! We cannot ignore our past - only learn from it. Isn't there a book (probably more then one) that has a lot of photos in it of lynching victims throughout the South/USA? I remember some kind of stink being made of it when it came out? Or it was an exhibit that was going around?

Forty years after the fact, is not justice. It's a lot of things, none good, and certainly not anything people should be Proud of, but justice?

Not in a million years.

Tortoise: There was a traveling exhibit that stopped at Jackson State on lynching throughout the South. It was so sad. I remember one picture of a man who had been tarred and feathered. He was just standing there and you could tell he knew he was about to die.

I've been working all afternoon posting Mississippi Murders and I'm not done. Please take a look and let me know what you think and if you have pictures or any information on names that should be posted. You can email me at and the site is at http://neshobanews.blogspot.com
thanks,
Susan

All, the JFP helped bring that exhibit here, called "Without Sanctuary." It was very intense, but needed to be seen by as many people as possible. There is a book of the photos that I haven't around here anywhere in case you didn't see it and want to come by and look through it sometime.

Here was my reaction to the exhibit that I wrote after it opened.

I just read some of Susan's site. I feel like I want to vomit.

We can thank Richard Barrett for helping to bring Killen to trial. If it wasn't for Richard Barrett's booth at the fair grounds, then Killen would have never face any charges. In other words, the Klan help convict him.

I'm very agry at Jim Hood (closing argements in the Killen case) calling Mike Winstead a hero. I guess you have to be a rapist, or a thug in Mississippi to be a hero. I guess, I'm studying the wrong career. Jim Hood should have describe Mike as brave not a hero. Good Lord what is the world coming too. Oh, please don't sue me because I said Lord.

By the way Mississippi's image will not change. If you think it has, then you must be from out of space.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

How could anyone view this stuff and get defensive or mad at people who criticize our past? This is horrible, horrible, horrible! How could humans be so cruel? It's ironic how these racists believed that African-Americans were an inferior race, but all I see is the inferior behavior of the racists themselves.

Agreed, cowboy, that Barrett gets some credit. I'm not sure all, but he certainly helped raise conscienceness on it. And you talk about Winstead: I agree that calling him a "hero" was extreme; I winced at the time, too. I did think of Barrett when Winstead said he was inspired to come forward by hearing that Barrett was bringing Killen to the fair. Talk about what going around coming around.

Why would anyone sue you for saying "Lord"?!? And your comments aren't offensive; it's not like you're throwing around ad hominems. You're making interesting points.

I guess that I'm from outer space. Mississippi's image can change. This state is on the cusp of change. It will take people learning to be assertive.. learning to let senators know how they feel about apologies for lynching, making sure that voting is fair.

Today on Court TV there were plenty of examples of Mississippi changing. And there was some real warmth displayed by many of the reporters who've been staying in Philadelphia this week.

If Mississippians would consider going through a true reconcilliation process (which involves coming to grips with the past) it could end up with this state being one of the most progressive with race relations.

Mississippi is such a beautiful state and so fascinating. The past is understandable when you understand the history. Then change is possible, too.
sk

I'm not glued to the TV, but I've had a sense of relatively fair coverage of the state, too, considering how bad it's (and we've) been in the past. And the Philadelphia Coalition is doing a pretty radical thing in calling for the reconciliation process to start county by county.

I believe the image of Mississippi is changing -- as attitudes change here, which is what must happen first. We still have some roadblocks -- like Lott, Barbour and apparently Cochran -- but the people are going to have to progress before such men apparently and then boot the likes of them if they dont' come along for the ride. I believe we're in that process now. It might take a little bit of time to figure out that men with so little courage to do the right thing aren't worthy of Mississippians' support, but it will happen. As Natalie might say, they'd better hold onto their seats. I truly feel this train starting to move.

I just been to the sovereignty commission website from a link of Susan web blog. I was shocked, truly shocked about what I found. I just happened to type in my last name (playing around) and my grandmother name appeared in the sovereignty files. Thou, the house address in Canton, Mississippi was wrong/changed. I went to find a CD with old family photos from the in 50s and 60s and I found a old news paper article that was scanned about an wedding anniversary that listed my grandmother house address and it matched the house address in the sovereignty files. I'm going to investigate more.

Thanks Susan and Donna. See even if we don't remember where or when, we read your paper Donna ;-) Absolutely shocking and sad!

Forty years after the fact, is not justice. It's a lot of things, none good, and certainly not anything people should be Proud of, but justice?

Not in a million years.

Bull. It's not for nothing that there's no statute of limitations on murder.

-- Tim

It's time to write the new book, "Mississippi 's Turning."

One of the best articles I've read yet came from "The Nation":

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050711&s=younge

Thanks, Susan, for posting those pictures. I haven't had a chance yet to look at them, but I will.

I really didn't agree with the verdict at all. First of all, He deserved more years for his involement, others should've been prosecuted along with him, AND they waited until the next generation becomes 30-somethings before justice was served. I don't know about everybody else, but I feel robbed that my parents tax burden has been dumped upon me without my consent and with such haste. This guy gets to ride off my taxes until he croaks which will be another 10 years at least, just like the man they claimed shot MLK. I don't buy the oxygen mask Killen was wearing on deliberation day, he's not dying. oh please.

Ray- Mississipi has been turning since I was born and I'm an engaged white female(to a black guy). Maybe you've just had a lot of pent up agression for the injustice that has just been levied against your black people and somehow feel you got justice. But you as an individual should have been turning long ago as well. I've apologized for my white people's evils for years and I'm tired of it. So I hope you are happy now. Is there anything else whites can do for you? maybe apologize for being white and immediately purchase my kente cloth and dashiki?

chickjuice, my eyes are tearing up after reading your response. You can't undo centuries of injustice in a week. A lot more needs to be done, so you will continue to hear about it FOR AS LONG AS IT TAKES. The statements of "your black people" and "my white people" already shows that we still have a long way to go. Being engaged to a black man does not excuse borderline racial epithets such as "you people".

Chickjuice, the phrase "Mississippi's Turning" has little or nothing to do with my attitude or your dating a black man. We black folks don't owe you anything for that. I have known the truth since my youth. My common use of the term "we" is to suggest that I'm in this battle for freedom and equality with everyone else, despite my blame or lack of blame. It is debatable that Mississippi has been turning since you were born unless you're still a baby or not born yet. I happen to know what justice actually means and realize justice hasn't been done. Obviously, you have failed at reading and describing me. Dating a black man doesn't really say much about who you are. Some white men and white women dated black men and black women even during slavery but did little or nothing toward abrogating slavery. I have never asked for any apology. Don't be a JacksunGuy. You might be stupid but I'm not. Try learning to read and understand before you speak. If you don't want to be seen as backward and stupid then don't exhibit the evidence.

Chickjuice, I must add that I love you for apparently looking past race and seeing a human being you love irrespective of race, if that is what you did. I have never asked for an apology; I only ask that we tell the truth. I wish you and your fiance the best of luck. I, furthermore, hope that you and your new husband can withstand the stares and offense racist and prejudice folks from both races may heap on y'all. I have twin grandchildren of mixed race, although I only see one race. I do know what you meant to say in your earlier email. I apologize for being so critical of your email or you. I was wrong.

The article that C.W. posted has a paragraph that better expresses how I feel:

So while the crimes that occurred during segregation were rarely systematic--the individuals who carried them out and the manner in which they carried them out were far too crude for that--they were systemic. They were born from a system of segregation that worked to preserve white privilege in the face of a concerted progressive onslaught--a system in which the white community had to collude in order for it to function. While the scale and nature of those privileges may have changed, the privileges themselves still exist. You can see them in the racial disparities in health, employment and poverty; you can watch their physical incarnation in the segregated academies to which so many whites send their children; and you can observe them on death row, where so many black parents see their children being sent.

L.W., it's called White Supremacy. Others will be tolerated if no choice; but, they can never lead. I hope most of us won't further tolerate this kind of thinking since we're so diverse in this county.

C.W. thanks for the Nation article link. (I should add them to my RSS feed if I knew how that works, ha. ) - it's a long piece and definitely looks worth reading . I'm sure there are others out there as well. This trial, if nothing else, has forced people and media to pay attention again . We sure can't expect our elected types to do so. Well, yes we can, we can expect it.

After reading all this national Op-Ed coverage, I get the feeling not many people want anything to change. They also certainly are just waiting for things to go back to what they percieve as "normal".

Change comes from inside, and I see we'll never please the outsiders.

Iron, I don't know if we'll ever please the "outsiders" or not; I know I was disgusted at the anti-southern bias I ran into as I ran around the country, with many people (but not all, of course) thinking I was an idiot, or a bigot, because I was southern. Of course, I realized at the same time that my state hadn't done a whole helluva lot to dispel their notions.

So, I go back to what I always say: We do the right thing for ourselves and our children and our state. We don't do it for the rest of the world, most of which believes the whole Civil Rights Movement was embodied in that awful movie "Mississippi Burning" because they haven't figured out that the whole country was complicit in these crimes. Still, as my story this issue points out, Mississippi had the worst and most ingrained system of segregation and racial violence, and that is our burden to bear. So we do it for ourselves. Ultimately, the world will notice, but don't wait for their cues. We can work on our own bigotry and challenge theirs at the very same time. We've got to.

Since I can't pass on a teachable and learning opportunity; Chickjuice, aggression is a word often associated and given to us blacks when we finally respond to evils perpertrated against us. How are we supposed to respond? We turned the other cheek for about 300 years then when we finally stopped, we were carelessly demonized again by the word aggression. However, I happen to embrace the word. Shortly after someone wrongly attacks me, aggression is likely to follow. Sometime it will follow with no regret or apology.

Despite knowing well what happened to my ancestors, and grandparents, I do not generally hate white people. I even regret hating the white people who deserve hate from me (the one who have hurt me personally). I ask for forgiveness all the time. Cheers. There is hope for all.

I ran across this, and I thought it would tie in with this topic, but I didn't want to interrupt the flow here, so I started another thread.

Ray - I applaud you as a black man(am I right?) to take a step back and breathe. *claps*. Yes, I love my black man to the ends of the earth. He's done wonders for me and himself in the 2 years dating him. And yes we plan to marry if I have my way. All that I'm saying is that yes, Killen should be punished but not by punishing me. Our tax dollars are paying for his retirement now. He was already about to die. All the people of Mississippi had to do was have some brave,upstanding journalist to shame Killen and his co-horts in books, print and other media until his death or just long enough until all their characters are ruined. That's real punishment for an old fart that is still calling people *iggers and sons-a-*itches. How shame. This particular white man does NOT represent me nor my family. I repeat, this particular white man does NOT represent me nor my family. My family was the one of the many families that helped blacks during the protest days. The mass media won't tell you about those whites though. Remember, 2 of the guys murdered were white. I was hoping that Killen was already dead. Save us the tax money to house his rotting corpse. I would rather see the state build a national monument and library named in those 3 mens honor instead of this. That's real punishment to him.

To others that lightly veiled your insults please by all means debate what I've said.

Yes, Chickjuice, I do know that lots of white folks helped back folks gain the amount of freedom and justice that we have received. We couldn't have done it without them. And I know we will need a lot of other white folks, black folks, Native American, Latinas, Asians, et al, to fully be all that we all can be. Those people on this blog who know me know I'm not racist at all. I don't think I have even made a racist statement during this conversation. I ought to be able to cnfront situations and tell the truth to issues with passion without making white people think I hate white people. My writing stype and personna are lessons in judgment and perception. I can be strong without being against white folks. I am not going to whitewash the truth. I don't get mad when white folks tell the truth about us. I will debate them when wrong in hopes of revealing the whole truth or until I'm convinced that I'm wrong. I have changed my views many times, some of them on this blog.

I respectfully disagree with you, chick. You're right that our tax dollars are paying for his retirement in one sense, but they might have been anyway. Plus, the backward system saved uss 41 years in tax dollars, you could say. I happen to know that Killen was living a pretty happy life surrounded by family and friends, and as you know he never spent a day in prison (for this crime). He is surrounded by people who agree with him and laugh at his jokes and egg him onóI don't believe that is punishment, or anything nearing justice.

I am not one to argue that prison is always the answer; however, if we are going to have a justice system that incarcerates certain people for awful crimes (or less-than-awful ones), it needs to apply to everyone equally. Right now, we've got young black men by the hundreds stuffed into our prisons for selling drugs, and many young women for being near men selling drugs -- our tax dollars are paying for that, too. The truth of the matter is that I'm happy to have some of my tax dollars to go to a decade, give or take, of overdue justice for Edgar Ray Killen. I think the message it sends to, and on behalf of, this state is worth the investment. That action alone will help send the message to our young people that the state is changing its attitudes, and if even one young entrepreneur decides to stay here and, for instance, start an amazing company that trains and hires generations of young people, then the cost of incarcerating ERK is well worth it. And that is only one possible seed among many that can pay off financially and otherwise.

I also disagree with your journalist point. People like Killen create little bubbles, little echo chambers, around themselves in which little intelligent thought gets through -- and a whole lot of journalist-bashing goes on. He would spend his final days outside prison believing he's superior to all them liberal, commie journalists who have done him wrong for so long. And his loved ones would re-inforce that myth. There would be no punishment in that, I assure you.

And your comment about the media not telling us about the white families who helped blacks is simply hogwash. We've heard more about the white heroes, real or fiction, of the movement than we have about the black ones. See "Mississippi Burning" again for proof.

The monument and library idea is a good one. It'd be great to see the Neshoba County Library renamed after the three men, for instance. That's where I learned what happened to them. That's not punishment, though, but it's a positive action.

I suggest to you that this is not an either-or game. We can punish, and we can build monuments. We can face history, and we can move forward. We can apologize, and we can accent our positives.

Also, other than Ray's comments, which he apologized for, I don't see the lightly veiled insults. But feel free to point out any ad hominems I may have missed. I think people are trying to debate what you said.

Thanks Donna. One day I will learn to slow down and edit my work before submitting it here. All of my life, people have told me to slow down. I simply retort "i'm in too big a hurry to slow down." Then, they laugh and say I'm crazy and beyond help.

"This particular white man does NOT represent me nor my family. I repeat, this particular white man does NOT represent me nor my family."
* * *


Maybe it's time to offer my favorite quote...

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

(Edmund Burke)


"So much of the history of the struggle between good and evil can be explained by Edmund Burke's observation. Time and again those who profess to be good seem to clearly outnumber those who are evil, yet those who are evil seem to prevail far too often. Seldom is it the numbers that determine the outcome, but whether those who claim to be good men are willing to stand up and fight for what they know to be right."

Continued ... http://neshobanews.blogspot.com

You're right, Susan. For too long in this state, good people have allowed not-so-good people to speak, and act, on our behalf -- and then too often not done a damn thing about it even when they resorted to pure evil

Must. Stop.

There's another quote about either learning from or repeating history. We (America and especially white Americans) have made many others around the world live up to their own histories, but we somehow don't want that burden palced on ourselves.

Johann, another way of putting it: We like to talk about our good history but not out bad. Why else have our Mississippi school textbooks, and others, left out Black and Native American histories which are so pronounced in Mississippi. I remember an old racist white teacher having us blacks kids feeling sorry for Robert E. Lee and hating Ulysses Grant. Then it suddenly occurred to me who Lee and Jefferson Davis were. From that point forward I reluctantly read U. S. history with great suspicion and caution. I said reluctantly because I didn't want to read it at all after that episode. I might add, that all I knew about Africa and Native Americans was what I saw on Tarzan and other t. v. shows. Needless to say, all we saw back then was mostly lies, and it wasn't an accident. I'm gone until Monday. No need for no one else to get mad at me for bringing up the dreaded past. I will talk about the future from this point forward. I'm only joking. Smile.

Ray, you bad boy. ;-)

Seriously, you're so right. Think of that old man who wrote the Northside Sun column saying that blacks should give thanks every day for slavery because, it seems, it means they don't live in that awful Africa with all the problems going on today (and I paraphrase). But his comments showed a complete lack of knowledge, much less understanding, that well a whole bunch of crap happened since, and was influenced by, the African slave trade that, well, may have had some kind of effect on that continent. That's so patently common sense, but when people have gaps in their history and their knowledge, they seem to lose the ability to reason based on one thing causing or affecting another. So they become one big logical fallacy like we hear every day on talk radio. It's like younger generations now who cannot wrap their minds around the economic injustice between races because they believe that everyone has the very same opportunities -- "well, he should just work hader!" and have no understanding of the effects of the very recent past (or even present) discrimination. And they can't fathom a world in which we can ackowledge those inequities while helping and teaching people to take personal responsibility and work hard. It's always either-or, which is never the solution.

Of course, race-based crime rhetoric is another example, but I'm not going there anymore today. I get dizzy at repeating myself on it.

Have a great weekend, Ray, and thanks much for being the de facto moderator last week in my absense. You rock. So does your honesty and your "aggression." ;-)

The "story" of history is told in many ways and is warped as it travels through the eyes, ears and mouth of each historyteller.

Professors have to be cautious or they will lose their tenure.
Prominent families don't want to have others know of the skeletons in their closets, etc., etc.

This is not limited to Mississippi. It's just that the history here is far more dramatic and interesting, it seems. Also, there has been a tremendous effort by very specific people and very evil people (John Satterfield, James Simmons, Tut Patterson, James Eastland....) to do some pretty horric things and then lie.

Further, there has been moneyed (sp?) interest from specific people from the North (white supremacists and nazis) who have helped bring on and prolong many of the problems (racist, segregated schools, etc.).

Mbecause of the efforts like the people who public the Jackson Free Press and so many others.

So, if you aren't part of the problem...you'd better be part of the solution. That's what my radical college professors told me.

Susan

fixed boo-boo

Things are going to change, though, because of the efforts like the people who publish the Jackson Free Press and so many others.

ladd - the media. It all starts with the media oulets. I have a voice, you have a voice, but if your voice can't get heard because the media outlets(WJTV, C-L, altnews, etc..) won't let your words be spoken to deal with whites/blacks dirty past, it's not much you can do unless you picket
non-stop daily with at least 200-300 people to make a scene with.

Ray - That's where you mis-step. Nobody asking you to whitewash the truth. and How do you know that "good" whites are sitting back doing nothing to control the "bad" whites? How do you know? please tell me. Because from where I'm sitting I'm looking at a black person across the room who would be in prison right now if was not for me helping him. Now, he's helping us(baby on the way). He's got a good job and we love him. So I have to disagree with you there. and yes, you were brought over on slave ships, to work, not partake in any of the vast luxuries whites enjoy. that changed. Good for blacks. Good for all races if you ask me. but here's the kicker. My fiance' tells me all the time that most of the blacks in Mississippi are spineless. They can be lawyers or docters but they dare not speak up unless they have total anonimity. Chokwe Lumumba is a prime example of what happens when a strong person speaks up in public about the ills in Mississippi. So speak up on the dreaded past all you want, but know that you're fighting in the past as well.

This verdict doesn't help race relations in Mississippi.

Where did I say good whites are sitting back and doing nothing? I don't remember saying that, but I will adopt the statement as partially true if you want me to. There are lots of spineless, corrupt and careless black folks. Dubois talked about the "Talented Tenth," the top 10 percent of black folks being trained and educated to lead and uplift the rest of black folks. He was shortsighted and too alienated from reality to realize that black folks are equally capable of selfishness, corruption, irresponsibilty, fear and hatred. As a lawyer who rarely socialize with other lawyers or professionals, you want see me singing too many praises of black professionals, or any other professionals, unless they are exhibiting love, truth, beauty, responsibility and human goodness toward their fellow man and woman.
And when I need soldiers for a real fight I look to common folks like us here on the blog. As far as I'm concerned your mind and heart determine who you are. Although I'm considered a professional I don't know what it really feels to be one. I'm too real and too aware of the misery, pain, suffering, and anguish most people feel on a daily basis just to get by. And I might add I'm blessed and know it. We have to look beyond our own situations to see the real truth.

Killen should be punished but not by punishing me. Our tax dollars are paying for his retirement now.

chickjuice, that's not really an argument against prosecuting Killen -- it's an argument against having a penal system at all. Is that really what you mean? If so, what's your alternative for dealing with criminals?

-- Tim

ladd - You feel that spending money to house this guy away from his family is somehow a strict enough punishment for him? I'm sure he'll get to talk to his family and have visits e-v-e-r-y single weekend. So no, This verdict did not punish Killen in any way I'm sorry if you think that it did. He'll most likely have a nice cell far from general population and will be privy to pens, pencils, paper, stamps, racist books, letters, and all sorts of "needs" he'll demand. My fiance' is clear with me on this and he's black. He even knows that nobody won here but Killen. Not the victims, not the black populous of Mississippi, not the city they were murdered in, nobody but Killen won. To glaze over in people's mind the perception that justice was served is only correct by 50%.

Killen got the justice and an extension on his social security benefits via Mississippi taxpayers.

Why isn't your black boyfriend speaking for himself? Is he a spineless black person? Do you have his spine? Does he even exist? If you or your boyfriend think most black men are spineless, just go up and slap the next one you see. You will quickly learn the answer to this mystery.

Tim- If Killen was locked when he should have been(20 years ago) that's fine. but to lock him away at age 70+ is a bit of a stretch even for the most determined justice fighter. It's just sad. He'll die within about 8-10 years and you and I will foot the bill. Criminals who do bank robberies, murders, drugs etc.. get locked up right away if caught red handed and deserve it. Killen was caught red-handed and got a hung jury then and an almost hung jury in 2005. A fitting punishment for him now is to release him to general population since he's going to prison and let them deal with him. But we all know he won't be put in general population.

chickjuice--
Let me get this straight: Killen should have been locked away 40 years ago, but since he wasn't he shouldn't be?
You argue that locking him up now isn't justice because of the cost to the tax payer. By locking him up NOW instead of 40 years ago, the tax payers saved a hell of a lot of money. So for a taxpayer-against-waste, is that justice?

Chickjuice, if you and your black boyfriend, are in a hurry to find out if all black folks or black men are spineless, wait until about 11:00 tonight and go to any black club in any neighborhood and just start slapping black folks. You may not even have to slap them; just call them a bunch of the N words. The answer will likely hit you before you finish stating the words. Good Luck, Chickjuice. Let us know how it turns out. I'll even come to the hospital to visit you.

If Killen was locked when he should have been(20 years ago) that's fine. but to lock him away at age 70+ is a bit of a stretch even for the most determined justice fighter.

As I posted on another thread on this site. there are damn good reasons why there's no statute of limitations on murder. And the fact that justice wasn't done in 1964 is certainly no reason not to do justice now, God knows.

He'll die within about 8-10 years and you and I will foot the bill.

I repeat my observation that your complaints about footing the bill are, ultimately, arguments against having a penal system at all. Additionally, I don't understand why it's worse to foot the bill for his prison stay for, say, 10 years than for 50. 50 would obviously cost more. So I'm really not getting your logic here.

-- Tim

Ray - He's at work. and He means spineless in the sense of not taking action on issues concerning them as a whole (i.e. this case so late, the flag etc..) It shouldn't have taken this long to get the case back in court. And if more black men came out and voted against the flag, it would've been changed. We firmly believe that. He's not saying spineless in the sense of starting a fight. We all know blacks love to fight.

oohh.. that should get a few comments.

Chickjuice, I'm inclined to agree with you here. Too many brothers are blinded, consumed and devoured by drugs, street life, irresponsibility, and carelessness to stand up and do the right thing. I could kick ass to kingdom come about these kind of problems.

Johann - Mississippi would've saved a bundle if he died in a prison brawl years ago than to throw him in now and give luxury until he dies. Do you think he'll go to general population or to a cell far away from the criminals that will get their own brand of justice on him. prison is not for rehabilitation, its for death. and thrwoing him away years ago wouldn't been worse for him than now. I say he'll live another 10 years on our tax dollars(which he might) but I would've rather he served life starting from back then instead. true punishment.

Is anybody interested in finding out who really killed Jesus? Some say it was Herod, some say Pilot. whose the real killer? If killer's bones are found, put them on trial. It'll ease the minds of the Christians.

I don't know what to do about this problem Chickjuice; although I have counseled, taught, preached, questioned, and criticized countless one for letting this happen to them (us). I suppose all I can do is keep trying. I'm worried that drugs and the attending evils of it will someday destroy us.

chickjuice, Do you work in a glue factory?

chickjuice, I appreciate that you're trying to express a lot of different things here, but I do suggest that you're wasting some indignance here. I agree with some of your points and not others, but I don't see the reason for your apparent anger. It's OK to disagree. I urge you to take a breath and just talk without hurling everything you say with a baseball bat.

You've said a lot of stuff, and I can't answer them all now. But it strikes me that you're reading in quite a bit into others' remarks that's not always there, and that isn't helping the discussion any. For instance:

You feel that spending money to house this guy away from his family is somehow a strict enough punishment for him? I'm sure he'll get to talk to his family and have visits e-v-e-r-y single weekend.

You said that to me. However, I did not say, "is somehow a strict enough punishment"óyou are putting those words in my mouth and twisting my logic. Thus, you've created a "straw man" to then angrily knock down when there is no need to. It is not up to me to decide what is a "strict enough punishment" for someone who did what Mr. Killen did. What I said was that I do not believe it is too late to send Mr. Killen to prison, and that your financial argument does not work for me, because it would have cost us more had we done it back then than it will now. And I don't think anybody should get a pass because they're old. That's seems kind of condescending to the aged to me.

I don't believe in the death penalty for anyone (and it's also expensive to the taxpayers), so that isn't a good option for me. And I certainly don't think that Mr. Killen is going to live out his days in bliss in prison because he gets a pad and paper and stamps. I'm still not convinced by your argument, but I respect that you feel that way.

Now, if as Tim asked, you're saying that you do not believe int he penal system at all, then that could be an interesting discussion, and I'd like to hear you elaborate on that.

Also, I totally disagree that speaking up about the past is "fighting in the past." I think it's very shortsighted to believe that history shouldn't play a role in education, and that would be your argument if you boil it down to its essence. It certainly would make no sense to try to cherrypick history for what makes certain people comfortable. History is history, and we need to know it all. That is not "living in the past."

I did not say the verdict helps race relations in Mississippi. I believe, however, that the conversation around the verdict can help race relations in Mississippi. Please listen to what I'm listening first if you are going to try to dispute it. Otherwise, you're wasting my time.

I would've rather he served life starting from back then instead.

Me, too, chick.

We all know blacks love to fight.

Are you sure? Every single one of them?

Lordy, Lordy, Lordy. The young becomes the old and mysteries do unfold. A glue factory? KRhodes, you're telepahic!

KROADS - I work in a Law firm. what about you? is Popeye's hiring?

ladd- don't get so bent out of shape. just answer me this, do you think Killen will be sent to general population? yes or no.

And stating 'the verdict will not help race relations in Mississippi' is not a stab at you to pick a fight, I'm just assessing how this verdict will affect race relations in the future. and I'm right. and I'll say that all the black men I've ever met love to fight, yes. clear that up for you.

Tim - 50 years wouldn't cost more because he would be long dead from a prison brawl to get him before that time. He would've survived for about 10 years, then murdered. money saved. I mean, that's how they do black men. throw them away for double-digit years in hopes they get murdered in a prison brawl.

I give up Chickjuice. I've been holding back for too long. I think I just might go home and beat up my wife. We've never fought before, but it's about time I started acting like I'm supposed to. I'll let you know Monday how it turned out.

CJ, if you think he'll be confined separately NOW, when racism is less than it was 40 years ago, what in the world makes you think he'd have been treated less gingerly by the authorities back then?

And how would 10 years in prison then be cheaper than 10 years in prison now? Costs have gone up, but adjusting for inflation, I'd guess it's probably six of one, half a dozen of the other.

chick, I'm not "bent out of shape" just because I don't agree with everything you say. Again, please stop telling me what I believe or think. I'm not doing that to you. I am actually trying to dodge your bullets and have a conversation with you. I'm not mad at you that you do not agree with everything I say, but I am asking you not to tell me what I think. It won't get us anywhere.

Is "general population" a prison phrase? I assume it means not in solitary confinement. If so, I don't know the answer, but I would suspect he would be kept separate from the general population. But I'm not an expert on it.

I didn't say that comment was a "stab," chickjuice. I told you why it was not what I believe, which you indicated that it was. Where are you coming up with this stuff? You really are trying to troll for a fight, I think, but I'm trying to patiently explain to you how the blog works (it's not a place for shouting matches) and pull you into the dialogue. Please take a breath and just have a conversation. Otherwise, you are going to piss people off, and it's going to turn into a fight, and then I'm going to ask you to leave regardless of your views.

And stating 'the verdict will not help race relations in Mississippi' is not a stab at you to pick a fight, I'm just assessing how this verdict will affect race relations in the future. and I'm right. and I'll say that all the black men I've ever met love to fight, yes. clear that up for you.

I don't believe that either you or I or anyone else is qualified to predict the future; however, I will accept that as your guess. As I said already, I think you're right that the verdict itself is not going to change race relations in the state; that's not really the point of a verdict in our system. However, I will repeat what I said one more time: that the dialogue around the verdict, and created about it, can if we take time to listen to each other and not just hurl angry-isms.

As for your stereotype about black men, I will accept your statement that every black man you know likes to fight. However, I have known many black men who are more pacifist than I am. I don't think it's fair to stereotype black men that way, and will ask you to avoid making blanket stereotypical statements here about any group. Again, that will only anger people. If you're here to have a civil discussion, I'm sure you will agree not to make statements designed to make others angry, and that includes twisting other people's words or making blanket stereotypes about people.

Tim makes a good point: It is on record how poorly the men who did go to prison in the federal conviction in this case were treated in prison.

Ray, please don't beat your wife. Not that you would. ;-)

Cheers, all. It's been fascinating discussion this week. We appreciate you all for caring enough to blog here.

chickjuice- "Is there anything else whites can do for you? maybe apologize for being white and immediately purchase my kente cloth and dashiki?"

chickjuice-"We all know blacks love to fight"

Sure, your boyfriend is a strong black man, and I am George W Bush! As to your working ìinî a law firm, one can only hope the distinction with your working ìinî a law firm is indicative of your not being an actual lawyer

Alright, krhodes, I know chickjuice is trying to push buttons, but you are ad hominem-ing back here. You don't know who her boyfriend is or where she works, and it's not particularly relevant to the conversation anyway. It's not like a white woman has to have a black boyfriend to be "qualified" to discuss race relations, and it doesn't mean she has any better sense of how to crack the nut than any of the rest of us. All we can do is be respectful, watch the insults, apologize for them when they come out and then keep having the conversation.

Thus, all, please keep the dialogue respectful and free of personal insultsóas well as stereotypes such as the ones you're throwing around, chickjuice. This kind of discussion isn't easy, but it will be easier if we self-regulate a bit.

Peace, all.

oh dear. what is happening here?
ladd, thank you for your reasonable interjection.
and it's time to take a break and I hope you do!

tim and others, thanks also, it's not about the cost to us tax payers,
(and some of us don't even...) or whether or not Mr. K. has a good or
bad time whilst in prison. that matters not. let him have all the pens
and paper he wants, let him write a g@#dm book and get paid . Point
is , the point has been made. Let's take a breath and t hen
move on.

Chickjuice, I'm not entirely sure I believe you are the person you describe yourself as being, but giving you the benefit of the doubt, and seeing that some points I might want to make have already been made, can I roll a couple of things past you?

You said We all know blacks love to fight.

Two names: Rev. James Lawson, Rev. M.L. King. If either one of these names isn't familiar to you, just google them.

One last thing - if you are, indeed, a young white woman dating a black man, then I feel for the young man. You have a long road ahead of you and someday you will look back to these statements you are making now and see how arrogant and ignorant they are. I know I'm sounding harsh, but I don't know how else to say this but to just say it out the way I see it. I'm speaking from sad experience, by the way. I'm speaking from looking back at various things I've thought and said over the years, especially the times that I thought I was "on top of it" as far as racial issues were concerned. I have no doubt that, if I live long enough, I will look back on my knowledge and attitudes today and just have to shake my head at my own ignorance.

I'm telling you this as a prelude to saying - stop spending so much time telling folks in here what to think and try really hard to listen to the invaluable wisdom being handed to you from those speaking from experience, a lot of it expensive experience (and I'm not talking about money here).

p.s. , oh good grief.
when I said I hope you take a break ladd, I meant because
you deseve to, not any other reason. And , ok, don't take a break,
we need you here. ha .
J/K
TAB

Don't worry, sunshine. I understood what you meant. And I'm going to take a break this weekend and clean. my. house. Needs it. And I'm going to hug Todd and my kitties a lot. I need it.

Ciao, friends. (Maybe for real if I can stay away!)

hurray.

hey everyone, let's just have fun now. ha.
Ladd is offline.
but - she is the energy, can we talk on our own?

well, for a weekend maybe.

black eyed peas Where is the Love for starters.
practice what you preach.

take kids to the park if you have some, or just go say hi
to kids you see..
peace to all here.

Sorry, sunshine, I snuck back in, but only for a minute. Kate would make us take a shot now if she weren't off on vacation. Bye, again.

ok Ladd, so go now. I knew this would happen.
I'm older than you. ha. It's been a long week, you take care.

Hey Sunshine, I think you and I are (as they used to say) "of an age". :-)

I believe that means we've lived thru some of the same things (and done some of that same thinking you were talking about).

L.W., you are too funny, girlfriend. :-)

Somewhere in one of these threads when I was rushing around trying to catch up, someone said something about the movie, "Crash". Good movie, watch it. Straight from the mouth of someone who watches very few movies, because most of them bore me, so when I praise one.....:-)

There was some talk of a meeting - geez, I feel so left out up here in the other end of the state. I bet you guys can talk enough to make up for me, though, so go to it. It ought to be fun and much, much more.

The validation you can get from being with and discussing things with people who have similar (possibly minority) beliefs is wonderful.

Y'all have a nice weekend, I'm going to try to do a little relaxing of my own. It's a new day, time to enjoy it for a bit.

C.W. - hope you're relaxing. Yes I'm really old, ha. But see Business Week
this week - gray power!
And I mentioned Crash but have not seen it, my daughter says her friends who've seen it say it's pretty harsh. I will rent it when it comes out on DVD and then watch in small increments. That's what I do with sad or violent
movies..just can't watch the whole thing in a theatre.

What 'other end of the state' are you? I'm in Vicksburg so I feel
a little left out as well, but might just truck on over to Jackson if there
is something happening. The time is ripe, life is short and there's work
to be done.

Crash is very grim, don't watch it when you're already depressed. That said, it's a movie that make you think about stereotypes, and who is the good guy and who is the bad guy. As someone else told me, there are no sympathic characters in the movie. I don't wholly agree with that, but it does try to point up the hidden evil in us all and it's unrelenting.

Other end as in within an hour and a quarter of Memphis. Jackson is 2 1/2 hours away, just to hit the edge of town. Vicksburg's not so far.

Ladd - "Alright, krhodes, I know chickjuice is trying to push buttons, but you are ad hominem-ing back here.You don't know who her boyfriend is or where she works, and it's not particularly relevant to the conversation anyway."

Well given her inflammatory stereotypical remarks it is my opinion that it is relevant, and that her boyfriend is not black. According to chickjuice, she "works in a law firm", and I never stated anything in contrast to that.

Also given the fact that you are a journalist, one would think you would have a greater appreciation of peopleís opinions.;-)

Ladd - "It's not like a white woman has to have a black boyfriend to be "qualified" to discuss race relations. All we can do is be respectful, watch the insults, apologize for them when they come out and then keep having the conversation."


Whoa, how did you draw upon this from what I have stated? Lastly I both apologize and digress.

krhodes,
Ladd is not here this weekend , well she shouldn't be! she needs a break for sure.

your comments about chickjuice are interesting - and why do you question her boyfriend being black.. Well, that is not very common here, of course, but that's not the point . What she says is what she says. And yes it's pretty much inflammatory..
and why do you apologize? I see no need for that.

KRHODES,

It could have been the Popeye's comment that set you off...then again, it could have been a LOT of things that set you off. That's why I just shut my mouth.

Take a deep breath, and remember that the two of you do not even know each other.

Ladd, as a former Mississippian I want to thank you for providing such necessary critical coverage of the Killen trial. Your paper's alternative voice, including this message board, are demonstrative evidence that, as Klopfer points out, "Mississippi's image can change." I will go so far as to state that I agree with the position that Mississippi has the potential to be on the cutting edge state with respect to race relations.

Klopfer, I can't help but feel that Mississippians such as yourself will be the ones we thank for such an institutional shift. I have read the prologue to Where Rebels Roost and am ordering a book today. It is evident you have done a tremendous amount of research. There are so many non-hyped civil rights murders that demand investigation. Where else can we begin but one step towards justice at a time?

We need a grassroots campaign to publicize the killing of Birdia Keglar, at least until there is a committment from prosecutors to re-investigate Ms. Keglar's murder. Assuming, perhaps wrongly, that at some point shortly after the killing there was an investigation into her death, by the police, FBI or some agency.

Ladd, I would suggest the Jackson Free Press do a story on Klopfer's WRR and on Birdia Keglar.

May the spirit of Jerry Mitchell rest with with you both.

I happen to know Ray Carter, and I further know he let Chickjuice go without an open and obvious beating because he saw, like KRhodes, LW, and surely others, that she was a "deer in headlights" who didn't know how to get out of the way of bullets. Even after Ray exposed her ignorance and cluelessness with great kindness, she still wasn't smart enough to stay clear of bullets. KRhodes knows her boyfriend can't be strong if he's dumb enough to tell her the things she kept stating. Believe me, Ray could have really torn her a new behind. Maybe she will grow up and learn better.

Wow...I leave for day or so and all the stereotypers come out.

Let's take Lanise's rant first.

Lanise- KRhodes knows huh? yeah he knows he has no clue about me or my man. that's about it. And you say my man is "dumb" for talking frankly to me and vice versa about race? please go crawl back under your rock. That's why we are together because we are able to talk frankly about such issues without pulling race cards and stereotyping. maybe you can learn more and grow up if you didn't hate on strong black men so much.

ladd said - "I know chickjuice is trying to push buttons", really? where?please point out one statement where I'm pushing buttons, please? Could it be "All blacks like to fight" comment? I cleared my "All blacks like to fight" comment with "All the blacks that I know like to fight". So your anger towards my comments are misguided. So don't get so bent out of shape when you don't agree with me, just don't agree or at least TRY to debate your disagreement. I'll ask you again, do you think Killen will be put in general population or a safe cell to live out the rest of his days on our dime?

C.W. - you named MLK and others who "don't" like to fight, you're speculating. You don't know what those men did in their own past when it came to actually "fist fighting" so don't sit there and claim you know these men personally when all you did was speculate based on what you saw on TV. and I cleared myself up clearly when I said "All black men that I KNOW like to fight. Again, no stereotyping by me. none.

Tim said - "CJ, if you think he'll be confined separately NOW, when racism is less than it was 40 years ago, what in the world makes you think he'd have been treated less gingerly by the authorities back then?

^That's not the point I was making. the point is, he should've been in jail a long time ago. Why now is it so easy to rush him back to court? is it because the government wants to clean out their skeletons before he dies and pacify blacks at the same time?

back to my original comments:

#1 comment - This verdict will not help race relations in Mississippi. How do I know this? Because Mississippi is steep in racism. Throwing away one of the many top hateful white people in Mississippi doesn't teach them to love in return, it teaches them to mobilize and hate even more. I dated a racist white guy in the past and let me tell you, he made me sick to my stomach just talking to him. I gave a suggestion as to what I thought his(Killen) punishment should be and I'm white. I would rather see the man dead than to have black people waving their "we shall overcome" flags when they can't even overcome the flag that's a symbol of oppression to them nationwide.

#2 comment - Killen got the justice, not good blacks, not good whites, not Mississippi.

Where are the sterotypes again? please read before you respond.

ps- There are no ad-hominem attacks in this comment.

Wow...I leave for day or so and all the stereotypers come out.

Let's take Lanise's rant first.

Lanise- KRhodes knows huh? yeah he knows he has no clue about me or my man. that's about it. And you say my man is "dumb" for talking frankly to me and vice versa about race? please go crawl back under your rock. That's why we are together because we are able to talk frankly about such issues without pulling race cards and stereotyping. maybe you can learn more and grow up if you didn't hate on strong black men so much.

ladd said - "I know chickjuice is trying to push buttons", really? where?please point out one statement where I'm pushing buttons, please? Could it be "All blacks like to fight" comment? I cleared my "All blacks like to fight" comment with "All the blacks that I know like to fight". So your anger towards my comments are misguided. So don't get so bent out of shape when you don't agree with me, just don't agree or at least TRY to debate your disagreement. I'll ask you again, do you think Killen will be put in general population or a safe cell to live out the rest of his days on our dime?

C.W. - you named MLK and others who "don't" like to fight, you're speculating. You don't know what those men did in their own past when it came to actually "fist fighting" so don't sit there and claim you know these men personally when all you did was speculate based on what you saw on TV. and I cleared myself up clearly when I said "All black men that I KNOW like to fight. Again, no stereotyping by me. none.

Tim said - "CJ, if you think he'll be confined separately NOW, when racism is less than it was 40 years ago, what in the world makes you think he'd have been treated less gingerly by the authorities back then?

^That's not the point I was making. the point is, he should've been in jail a long time ago. Why now is it so easy to rush him back to court? is it because the government wants to clean out their skeletons before he dies and pacify blacks at the same time?

back to my original comments:

#1 comment - This verdict will not help race relations in Mississippi. How do I know this? Because Mississippi is steep in racism. Throwing away one of the many top hateful white people in Mississippi doesn't teach them to love in return, it teaches them to mobilize and hate even more. I dated a racist white guy in the past and let me tell you, he made me sick to my stomach just talking to him. I gave a suggestion as to what I thought his(Killen) punishment should be and I'm white. I would rather see the man dead than to have black people waving their "we shall overcome" flags when they can't even overcome the flag that's a symbol of oppression to them nationwide.

#2 comment - Killen got the justice, not good blacks, not good whites, not Mississippi.

Where are the sterotypes again? please read before you respond.

ps- There are no ad-hominem attacks in this comment.

Cortez- I had those high hopes once, but I realizded I was just high. No more mary jane for me.

Me and fiance' are here my account so all you people that want to talk to him, he's here with me until 11:30am. fire away.

Fiance'William- To Lanise, thanks for the vote of confidence in calling me dumb. I'll be sure to tell my son when he's old enough to steer clear of ANY chicks named Lanise just to be on the smart side ok?

As far as the verdict, NO JUSTICE. Any takers of debate on this?

Chickjuice, your black man might have big muscles but he can't possibly be strong. Otherwise, why can't he talk for himself? I don't believe anyone in this conversation believes you even have a black man or any man for that matter. If I'm wrong perhaps you and your black man could use some education. You can't use the few black men you know to fake an understanding of all black men. Nor can that emaculated, weak or phantom boyfriend of yours do this. Can you please let your black boyfriend email us. We would like to hear from him personally. Once you learn to stop stereotyping and to do some real studying of issues, you might one day really have some Chickjuice.

William, children are smarter than you think. Don't worry, your son will know. Good luck William. We love you and would like to help you if Chickwithoutjuice would let us and you.

Ray - I'm her fiance', William. I don't do the i-net thing so I ain't wasting time registering when I can just use hers. Did you see my name up there? and chickjuice didn't stereotype all black men so save the drama speech about understanding all blacks, she never said that. I don't know you Ray and judging from your weak response I don't think I'll be emailing you. why should I? I'm here now. talk.

phantom boyfriend? damn. you tried your best to insult me then huh?