With all the justified focus on Baton Rouge's growth, I have tried (sparingly, I admit) to find items about Jackson's growth in the past two weeks. I found nothing about this. I would think that at least some of the Miss GC evacuees would start calling Jackson home, given that N.O. people now call B.R. home.


These are just three links and excerpts from various websites about Baton Rouge's sudden growth

http://www.bowl.com/articleView.aspx?i=10871&f=1
City officials told the Los Angeles Times that the population of East Baton Rouge Parish, which includes Baton Rouge, has nearly doubled from 425,000 to 850,000 since Katrina ripped through Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana two weeks ago.

Philip’s Note: Shelby County TN is around 900 thousand


http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/09/baton.rouge.impact/
Baton Rouge swells with evacuees
Population surges 50 percent as displaced ponder next step

Baton Rouge Louisiana: Best and Worse of Times
http://www.bayoubuzz.com/articles.aspx?aid=4949

Oh, BTW, the Baton Rouge Advocate (the mainstream newspaper) is already touting the city's pluses. We all know the JFP has these last few years. Is the Ledge doing so as well?

http://www.2theadvocate.com/stories/091105/ent_readings001.shtml

Melton claimed our city doubled... I will testify things seem a bit crowded but "doubled" is a bit much. Personally, I've helped about three families find homes in the area and have heard many more are looking. Some are from the GC and some are from NOLA Metro...

I find myself thinking the Jackson/metro area will probably get a permanent boost of 20,000 or so. I don't know how many are here now, but when someone vaguely official (I didn't know the statement began with Melton) said the city's population had doubled, I took it at face value. In retrospect that probably wasn't very wise of me, because the city population doesn't look like it went up by 100 percent. 40 percent, maybe.

I'd say the Ledge is about as likely to sell a positive image of Jackson as it is to add a Gay Life section to Southern Style, but maybe it'll spare some kind words about Madison, Brandon, Clinton, and Ridgeland.


Cheers,

TH

You make a good point, Tom. Can anyone think of a city where a daily metropolitican newspaper is located with as much contempt toward its host city as much as The Clarion-Ledger does this one? In times of corporate media sensationalism, there probably is one or two others, but I don't know of any.

It's the polar opposite of boosterism. Maybe we should coin the phrase, "basherism."

BTW, I repeated that "doubled the population" phrase a time or two, I know. I think I got it from the city, but to be honest with you, I don't remember exactly where it came from in the madness. I stand corrected for jumping on the exageration wagon.

No worries, Donna; I actually might have been the one who passed it along to you, as I seem to remember sending you a weird email shortly after the hurricane hit where the "doubled" quote was part of my ramble.

As far as the Ledge goes, I suspect this is a southern thing. Possible factors:

- There's an idea in the back of the southern mind (regardless of race), I think, that whites get the good stuff and blacks get the bad stuff. Jackson is a 74 percent black city, so people imagine that it must be subpar compared to the predominantly white cities that surround it. If this sounds shrill to anyone reading this, consider: If Jackson were 74 percent white and surrounded by predominantly black suburbs, do you really think the rhetoric would be so uniformly negative?

- Class consciousness, fear of the hoi polloi, is a big thing--and Jackson has some po' folks in it.

- Southerners tend to be suspicious of cosmopolitanism. And big cities, for that matter.


Cheers,

TH

My thoughts on how Jackson and Baton Rouge compare:

- Baton Rouge benefits greatly from having 40,000+ (LSU) and 9,000+ (Southern U) student universities in town. A relative of mine attended grad school there, and it's hard for me to believe that this population isn't counted in the city's overall pop. If Jackson's colleges had a total of 50K students at it's current state, I dunno where they'd live. BR just doesn't at all seem like a big place.

- Baton Rouge has the Mississippi running right through it, and Jackson has the Pearl. The Pearl looks DEAD in its most visible area (I-20), BUT if you can see over the wall of I-55 just a few blocks north it looks like a normal river.

- Baton Rouge has a lot of great places to eat b/c of the food culture in south Louisiana. Jackson has its share of great places, too, but it's never been thought of as a culinary treasure. I also think that this is one of BR's BIGGEST sources of pride.

- BR is an hour away from New Orleans, one of the biggest tourist attractions in the country. I think this has hindered them in many ways. I.e., they have a tiny airport (there's a much better, international one an hour away in NO), they don't have an affiliated baseball team in the metro area(there's AAA an hour away) and I've never heard of them having many festivals, etc. (again...b/c an hour away lies a festival every weekend).

This being said, being an hour away from one of the biggest tourist attractions has GOT to have SOME positives.

- Like it's been pointed out here, BR has a locally-owned paper that is not a detriment to their city. Jackson has a piece of junk owned by somebody across the country that could care less about the city, and run locally by people that seem to care even less.

- Jackson has a much larger, more beautiful downtown than BR. Jackson's downtown is primed for tremendous growth. BR has a tiny, deserted downtown with one building of any size (LA State Capitol), a few dumpy casinos and convention center-type place. The last time I checked, Jackson's downtown was Manahattan compared to BR's.

I have heard that Baton Rouge is trying to bring more life to their downtown, though. It's been 5 or so years since I've been, so forgive me if my description is outdated.

- Jackson has many more museums/cultural events than Baton Rouge.

- Both cities have beautiful, historic homes throughout the city.

These are my opinions based on the times I travelled down there to visit. Personally, I wouldn't trade much in Jackson for anything in BR. I would like for Jackson to have a major university in town, but that's about it.

Good points, Millhouse. Remember, though, that Jackson has 30,000+ college students. This is a college town, too, although many people forget that, probably because two of our major colleges are HBCUs.

(One other factor that I neglected to mention last night: The Ledge's most valued subscribers from an advertising standpoint, e.g. rich folks, are more likely than not to live in the suburbs. And most folks who have left Jackson for the suburbs are not all that fond of the Bold New City...)

Yeah, that drives me nuts. Tougaloo is a GREAT four-year liberal arts college; it should always be mentioned in the same breath as Millsaps and Belhaven. And Jackson State is the only place within healthy driving distance where you can get a Ph.D., except in health-related fields. Folks who want evidence that segregation is still alive and well need only look at how white folks tend to scoff at HBCUs when they're considering college options. Truth is that JSU has always been diverse, and is becoming more so.

But then we still live in a world where personals say "SWF seeks SWM" (or vice versa), or "SBM seeks SBF" (or vice versa). It astonishes me that folks will admit that race is such a dealbreaker for them.


Cheers,

TH

Yes, and in the next breath, tell us there is no more racism. Why is it ALWAYS the ones who doth protest the most about anyone talking about racism who are the most suspect in this respect? And everyone knows it but them. What do they think they're hiding? The words give them up every time.

Yeah: "What dirty dishes? I don't see any dirty dishes. Nope. There are no dirty dishes at all, so there's nothing for me to do." At which point all the other overworked husbands tell them "You know, I've noticed that there are never any dirty dishes at my house, either." Unfortunately, we can't quite say that everyone knows it but them because they tend to have a very good support network, and as the plethora of wacky cults we've seen over the years have demonstrated, it's very easy to believe baseless and ridiculous things if (a) you really want to believe them and (b) your friends assure you that they're true.


Cheers,

TH

(In some ways it's much harder to be white and acknowledge racism in this community, as you've probably felt as much as anyone. People don't like to be confronted with the realities of their own privileged status. Makes them very uncomfortable.)

Ladd, does that 30K include area JUCO students or something? Between JSU, Millsaps, Belhaven and Tougaloo, I don't quite get where the 30K would come from. I would think that JSU is BY FAR the largest with close to 8K and I know the others are considerably smaller.

And, while Jackson is technically a college town, I remember the college edition of the JFP from a few months ago where many of the interviewees didn't consider Jackson a good college town. To me, it just doesn't feel like reaching out to college students is put at a premium in town.

I've always wished that the area around Millsaps/Belhaven could be more student friendly...more hangouts, restaurants/bars. But, both of these schools are faith-based institutions in which students would probably get in trouble if caught drinking. I've always wanted that area to be a bustling area similar to Harvard Square or something.

And Tougaloo is close to everything on County Line, but that's hardly a college atmosphere. I'd be interested to know how many places around town offer incentives to college students...

Done with my rant...

I believe the number includes UMC and community colleges as well.

No question, the town has a "perception" problem for students and others, but that is in large part due to the Jackson-bashing that goes on. Remember Barbie Bassett telling the Millsaps paper that this area scared her because you could hear gunshots all the time?

Harumph.

Fortunately, much of that perception is changing for young people here. There's a real cohesive scene building up, and that will be contagious. But it's sure no thanks to the folks who go around bashing the city all the time, whether out of racism, ignorance, redneck-ism, or all three.

Don't forget RTS and Wesley Biblical, which also have a few thousand students each--as well as the Mississippi College Law School, the MSU Architecture School, and the University Medical Center. I haven't added them all up, but 30K sounds about right to me.

I've noticed there are a lot more hangouts around Millsaps than there used to be; not so many around Belhaven yet, but hopefully the Fortification renovation (if that's still in the works) will remedy that.

I've never completely understood the college bar industry idea; the legal age is 21, so bars set up specifically to appeal to college students would be sort of like cigarette machines set up to appeal to high schoolers. But truth is that folks at Millsaps are not going to get in trouble for drinking. It's a religious institution, but a very liberal one.


Cheers,

TH

Tom Head: "Truth is that JSU has always been diverse, and is becoming more so."

Do you know the racial statistical breakdown of the JSU student body?

No, and that's an excellent question. But I do know that about half of their faculty has pretty much always been white, and that they have a huge international student body made up of students from Russia, Latin America, and various Asian countries.


Cheers,

TH

Some statistics:

JSU demographic makeup: 97.1% black non-Hispanic. Okay, Prof, glad you asked.

As far as population goes:

JSU -- 7,815 students
Millsaps -- 1,200 students
Tougaloo -- 940 students
Belhaven -- 2,354 students
University Medical Center -- 1,773 students
MC School of Law -- 425 students
Wesley Biblical -- 107 students
Reformed Theological Seminary -- 2,500

That's only 17,114 students, but doesn't count community college students and folks at the R&D center or MSU architecture school. 30,000 still sounds pretty realistic from where I'm standing.


Cheers,

TH

"Remember Barbie Bassett telling the Millsaps paper that this area scared her because you could hear gunshots all the time?"

Thankfully, no. Was this recent?

And, Tom, the Fortification rezoning/rebuiding is still going to happen. There have been blurbs about it in the CL and more in the Northside Sun. It sounds like it's going to be a great project. It should be a tremendous boost to Belhaven and surrounding neighborhoods. Lord knows Fortification itself needs to be repaved in a bad way.

Sometime in the last year. We dinged her on it in the paper.

I'd count MC students, overall, as Jackson college students. Also, it is good for people to realize that we have a wonderful and diverse line-up of small schools here. I prefer that, personally, to one mega-university.

I'd also point out that JSU racial make-up is close to that of JPS. Personally, I consider Jackson State our hometown university, and don't care what the racial makeup is. Frankly, we live in a majority-black city, due to white flight; why not have a majority-black university.

And it's good to note that certain graduate programs are much more diverse. I have mixed feelings about the whole HBCU diversity issue. I see both sides.

HBCU diversity? 97.1% black, for JSU? Err, that's not diverse.

Ole Miss, in spite of its trappings of the Old South, is FAR more diverse than any of the HBCUs.

Does diversity only matter when white people are the majority? Just sayin.'

I didn't say it was diverse, and I certainly didn't anything about only mattering when people are white. My point is that there is a complicated debate about the diversity needs of HBCUs, which were originally set up because blacks were excluded from white society in every way, and I see points on both sides. However, I'm too beat to get into that right now. Just put the issue to bed and going home to veg with the kitty cats and to try not to think about anything that matters. ;-)

JSU is definitely our hometown university. It's a historically black school in a predominantly black city, and I'm happy and comfortable with that. I'd also have no reservations about attending, and if I teach at college level (and I might; I'm getting my Ph.D. in 2007), that'll probably be where.

Agreed on grad programs being more diverse. Ditto the faculty. But I have to admit, to concede a point to Prof, that I thought the figure would be lower than 97.1%. Not that this really changes anything as far as I'm concerned.


Cheers,

TH

Millhouse, that's a good summary of the comaprison:

Even with the corrupt state government and business un-friendly tax structure, Baton Rouge's stall-out over the past generation is even more puzzling to me than Jackson's. BR has a large university, plenty of places to find distinctive dishes, and is at the boundary of the Deep South and Acadiana cultures. Plus NO is an 80 mile away. On the other hand a BR Advocate series back in 2002 featured one very successful BR native now in Austin who said that for all of La's cultural diversity, he found it really intellectually rigid. He said "you never felt you had the freedom of wide open thought".(BTW, this guy had 200 patents with IBM and even helped design the supercomputer that was REPLACING the one that beat Gary Kasparov in those chess matches!!).

RACE RELATIONS

I'm not that familiar with Baton Rouge, but everything I've heard indicates that this city's race relations isn't exacty winning any prizes either. Witness the stories about firearms sales skyrocketing here after Katrina.

COLLEGES

I think the biggest problem with Jackson is there is no university with five-figure enrollments, thus enhancing Jackson's name-brand recognition for "college town" status (LSU with 30K undergrads and SEC membership, doesn't have that problem). Furthermore, this makes it rather difficult for a large mass of students to connect with each other - though surely lots of students at each others colleges know each other.

However, I don't think the Millsaps and Belhaven religious affiilation is that much of a detriment to a nightlife. Firstly, Millsaps is a Methodist school while Belhaven is Presbyrterian -- both usually considered moderate-to-liberal denominations. Furthermore, unlike most Mississippi colleges and universities, these two campuses -- especially Millsaps -- likewise lean moderate-to-liberal on socio-cultural issues.

*Last years marriage amendment almost got DEFEATED in the Millsaps precinct (the fire station just off the campus on State St). It passed by only 51%!!!! That's one of, if not THE, strongest opposition to the amendment in the entire state (even more than Biloxi and Bay St. Louis precincts)

* Kerry also just barely lost at the fire station precinct toohere by 49% (had just literally a handfull more Kerry voters gone to the polls, Kerry would have taken this precinct). Belhaven wasn't far behind either (about 42% against the marriage ban, about that same number voting for Kerry - yes, 42% in an overwhelming white middle class precinct!).

BTW, Jackson has no special advantage in this regard. Baton Rouge has some dominant middle and upper middle class white precincts just as "liberal" as Fondren and Belhaven. LSU surely must have some progressive groups working to make their city and state better. BUT........on the other hand, as far as I can tell, Millsaps and Belhaven don't suffer from LSUs notorious reputation for being a party-and-sports school where serious studying doesn't get done (certainly unfair to a great extent, but like it or not that's the school's image -- which they are trying to change to be sure. But reputations tend to die hard)

Philip, I knew about the 49% Fondren statistic but didn't know about the 42% Belhaven statistic. I'd assumed we were conservative. Very happy to be surprised in this instance.

As far as metro universities go: What we really need is vastly increased funding for JSU. A Jackson State University with 30,000 students would be heavenly.


Cheers,

TH

I was able to find a little something on Jackson's sudden population surge the other day from USA Today:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/2005-09-11-katrina-baton-rouge_x.htm

At the same time, many of the displaced are relocating north to Jackson, Miss., and Shreveport, La. The MetroJackson Chamber of Commerce says the metro population doubled to 1 million in the week after the hurricane; some have since left.

I can't imagine the city or even the metro area's population doubling, but I do believe that a significant amount of growth will happen once the dust settles as far as who'll stay permanently vs. those who choose to go back to New Orleans, the Gulf Coast or relocate elsewhere. It's bittersweet, however, to think that they city's population is increasing as a result of a natural disaster.

I totally agree with you, g.e. boy. It is bittersweet and tragedy. However, I still believe we should do everything we can to let New Orleans evacuees, and those from the Coast, know how great a city this is, that we have a "creative class" growing in leaps and bounds, and that they need go no further to be involved in (and help grow) a vibrant community. We're hearing from tons of evacuees so far who are thrilled to find out what is happening in Jackson. They had no idea. Many had just heard the city based from all those bozos who just want to whine about crime without actually doing anything to prevent it.

Besides, they won't be far away from their fair city during its rebirth. Even if they return, they can grow to love our city as much as we do, and consider it a home away from home, as many of us do New Orleans now.

... bittersweet and tragic ... that is.

... and "bashed" instead of "based" ...

I saw on another message board in which someone said the permanent metro population will settle between 700-900K people, once everything shakes out. If those figures hold true, there's gonna be a big building boom around here. There's not enough houses and apartments, in my opinion, to house all these people. Some of those construction jobs could go to those very same evacuees who are looking to rebuild their lives.

'scuse me...but you're talking to a JSU alumni here. ;)

Ayers decision got me a Master's.

I didn't know that. Cool. Todd is considering pursuing a Master's a JSU, too, when he gets a little time. And I'd love to teach journalism there when I get a little time. I think it's a great campus. I love to spend time there.

Regarding diversity in my Master's program at JSU.

It was about 35% white and the rest were African American. Teacher ratio was a little lower than that. The Social Work Master's program has some of the best teachers I've ever had. One, in particular, that I wished ruled the world.

Master's program was in the R&D center off Ridgewood. They have SW, Public Health, and Speech Pathology there as well.

As far as I knew, when I graduated (ALMOST 4 years ago...Jesus I'm getting old) the ratio of white to black was actually become more 50/50.

I liked the school. Although a bit "loose" with the paperwork (every JSU grad will laugh at that) they were a good school with great teachers.

One of my profs is on the Board of Grace House. The other was a fairly famous ACLU lawyer back in the 60's that just blew my mind EVERY DAY.

Her name was Jackie Mitchell, and you can thank her for the birth of the social policy writing.

She was the first woman who ever forced me to define "race", and who taught me to ask people who the hell "they" were...and why "they" were responsible for everything. :P

She gave me critical thinking skills and a career. One of the toughest teachers I ever had.

I would like to add one MORE thing, since we are talking about people settling in the Jackson area.

I know that most of the major shelters around here closed last week. I have friends that are helping pass out water to people in line at the Trademart waiting to apply for benefits...almost up to a thousand now. They said they believed some of these people were sleeping in their cars in their parking lot.

This bothers me. These people WILL slip thru the cracks. I just fear that we are going to have a large population of new "southern homeless" that will be wandering the area for a while.

Yeah, that feared "they" we were all warned about growing upóor these days on talk radio. "They" want what "we" have. "They" are lazy. "They" don't want to work. "They" are dangerous. "They" are inferior.

Screw "they."

"We" are better than that.

As for grad schools, for the record, I studied under some idiots at Columbia. Some had book learning, you could call it, but no clue about the real worldóand some were downright bigots toward the South.

However, several professors there made me a better person, and certainly a more informed one: Lynnell Hancock, Manning Marable, Stephen Shapiro, Jay Heubert, for instance. Sam Freedman made me a better writer. However, none of them taught me more than Ms. Oneida Hodges and Ms. Salter back at Neshoba Central. Or Dr. Howard Ball at Mississippi State.

Good teachers are everywhere; so are bad ones. And I'll tell you this: I would jump at the opportunity to study under Otha Burton at JSU. I've spoken to his class a couple times and I so appreciate the critical thinking about public administration that he is teaching.

I haven't been to JSU's campus in recent years, because I haven't had a real reason to yet. (Haven't been to Lemuria, either, though I have an open invitation and will probably do a signing there sometime soon.) Went to the R&D center many times when the AAUW booksale was there, though.

I have a sneaking suspicion that I'll end up teaching at JSU eventually. I'm too liberal to teach at Belhaven or MC, and don't have the resumÈ for Millsaps. Because I teach the humanities and not law, health sciences, or architecture, that leaves JSU and Tougaloo (unless UMC wants to hire me for an ethics class or something). And I would love an excuse to teach at Tougaloo one day (another school where I know a pretty big chunk of the faculty).

Ali, sometime we're going to have to talk about the folks you studied under in social work. I go way back with one of their SW professors. And some of their other professors, too--I'd say I know about one-third of the faculty from various places. Hung out with three of them yesterday, actually.


Cheers,

TH

Oh, one more JSU story...

I did my master's (M.A., Humanities) by correspondence from California State University, Dominguez Hills. After I started the program, they got a new president: James Lyons, who had just switched over from serving as president at Jackson State.

The CSUDH M.A. diploma has Gray Davis' signature on it, which means of course that folks who graduate from the program now get Arnold Schwarzenegger's. Assuming he loses next year and goes back to making movies, that is going to be an incredibly cool conversation piece in about 20 years.

As I was finishing up the program, I took two extension courses in Spring Hill College's Master of Theological Studies (M.T.S.) program, which were offered through the local Roman Catholic diocese and hosted at St. Joseph's High School. One of my classmates was finishing up her very last course in the program, and then planned, M.T.S. in hand, to join her husband in California. It was Joyce Lyons, of course.

BRILLIANT woman. Computational mind; someone would ask her a question, she would sit there in stone silence for 5-10 seconds, and then give a detailed, flawless answer. It was like she structured everything in advance--wrote a draft of what she was going to say in her head, and then recited it.


Cheers,

TH

That's only 17,114 students, but doesn't count community college students and folks at the R&D center or MSU architecture school. 30,000 still sounds pretty realistic from where I'm standing.

The "over 30,000" number does include Hinds, which has about 15,000 students.

- T.

Thanks, Todd. And that doesn't even include Holmes, and the vo-tech schools--Antonelli and Virginia. If we include the 'burbs, I'm not sure 50,000 is even all that unrealistic.


Cheers,

TH

I drove through Baton Rouge (pronounced - Ba'ton Rooooj) not too long ago on a trip to a friends hous. I remember him telling how you can get lost if you're not paying attention once you hit the Louisiana state line. boy was he right. I got lost twice before he directed through 2 dirt roads, a construction site and a walmart parking lot to find his quaint apartment tucked in between some old train tracks and a circle K.

How was the traffic down there?

jackson has 30,000 college students?

WHERE?

4000 at MC. 1500 or so at Millsaps. Belhaven i a couple of thousand or so. JSU? 7000 or so if I'm not mistaken. UMC? Not more than 1000. You can't have more than 10000 at the local junior colleges.

30,000?

Three posts up...

The "over 30,000" number does include Hinds, which has about 15,000 students.

http://www.hindscc.edu/About/

- T.

I have lived in BR and in Jackson now. I earned a PhD from LSU and lived there for over seven years, but grew up in Jackson and now teach at a local college.
There is no comparison between the two. It doesnt matter how many students there are in the Jackson area, it is a matter of centralization. Having one major campus, the students are centered around the university and businesses grow up around that. This centralization is what fosters a college town atmosphere. Jackson has grown outwards while Baton Rouge has maintained a vital center in which it is possible to walk from one's residence to local bars and restaurants.
The main problem with the Jackson area has always been that it is split into competing factions, sections, etc. and has never been able to maintain a comprehensive identity.

I've been spedning some time in Montgomery over the last month so I now have a pretty good perspective between The "J"...the Baton,,,and now the Mont......comparing the three would be like comparing three comparable size cities in the Northeast....each has it's own personalities, strengths, and shortcomings......based on their history...planning...growth directions...proximity to major metro areas.......to say one is somehow better than the other is too general...to really mean anything....

hows that for general.....???

I have nothing against BR, but to say there's no comparison between the two seems awfully ludicrous to me. Especially with the reasons you gave for your basis.

No doubt - LSU and Southern help BR tremendously. But, even w/o a major college in the middle of town, I think that Jackson still more than holds its own against BR.

I didnt make the initial comparison, just contributing my point of view.
Jackson does not compare to BR. Jackson is a dying city and has been for at least twenty years. Do I like that? No.
But just go pull the building permit applications, tax receipts, etc. for the two cities for the last couple of decades and compare them.

Jackson is NOT dying. There are, in fact, quite a number of projects under construction right now, or on the way. The King Edward Hotel renovation, the expansion of Jackson Place, the new Supreme Court Building, the Convention Center, the planned renovation of the Standard Life Building, the art museum, Ceva Green.... More are on the way. Jackson has certainly faced many challenges, and I don't doubt that there will be more. What is needed in Jackson is a belief that the city CAN and will work. I think this is beginning to be evident in Jackson. With reference to Baton Rouge, I must admit that I am surprised that it has shown so much growth. Perhaps comparisons of the two aren't really useful, but to dismiss Jackson as "dead" isn't useful- or correct- in any way.

They do have rising crime rates in common.

http://www.2theadvocate.com/news/police/5542911.html

I was born in Jackson and lived there for 9 years as a college student and afterwards and am now almost to my second anniversary of living in Baton Rouge. I won't join the 'are they comparable' debate but there are a few things that have left quite an impression on me as I've transitioned between the two. But it's time to get back to bit arranging. I'll catch up on this thread later and see if I have anything worth adding.

True. Jackson's probably seen more flight from the inner city than most regional peer cities. Therefore, receipts, etc. will be much higher in a lot of these places. But, as tombarnes says, there are plenty of signs that disprove your theory that Jackson is dying. If anything, it's showing as much life as it has in many years.

A family member of mine was a grad student at LSU and we used to visit from time to time. And, in no way did I ever get the impression that BR was something Jackson couldn't compare to. If anything, I thought they were quite comparable minus a 40K-student university in the middle of town.

Like any place, I'm sure that both cities have points that the other city would like to have. But, from where I stand, they even out.

OOOOOOOk, since I literally spend half my time between the two cities and am the acknowledged resident expert on BR, I'll throw in my two cents.

1. Colleges. That is the first and most obvious difference. Forget about the fact that there are 30,000 students in Jackson. They are broken up into too many schools. We have alot of smaller colleges/universities here. In BR, you have Southern and LSU. When it comes to cultural events and social functions, that makes a huge difference. Because of LSU's size, it will offer more cultural events and attract a higher level of talent than would be possible at a small school. Because they are centralized, that means they are attracting a larger corporate/sponsor base and the community dollars are centralized. This allows for more money to be poured into cultural events than seeing the same money divided among 12 or so different schools. Its a question of market power when you really look at it. Then there are the sports programs. Lets face it, if I want to see some really good basketball, I can't watch it here in jackson. In BR you have LSU basketball (even when they do suck you still get good SEC teams coming to BR), football, and baseball. You simply can't compare the sports scene in BR to here. This town is dead for the most part when it comes to sports and the level of interest.
Some towns are sports towns, some aren't. Jackson is not.

2. Population. The Jackson metro area probably BEFORE Katrina was 100K less than BR metro area.

3. City/Parish government v. Jackson's city and Hinds County gov. In BR, the city and parish government are one. In EBR you still have towns like Zachary and Baker with their own metro governments but the rest of the parish is one government with BR. They don't have the squabbles like we do that retard progress between Hinds COunty and Jackson.

4. Larger industrial base. You have the petro-chemical industry plus the Shaw Group to support the community, arts (see the Shaw Center) and other cultural aspects. that also means the salaries are a little higher than here. In Jackson, you simply do not have that base here and with the downfall of Worldcom, we lost our one true corporate giant.

5. Race. Both have Black Mayors. Kip Holden was a known quantity in BR. He was elected in a majority white city. Bobby Simpson did such a great job of enraging the voters that alot of voters were willing to take a chance on Kip Holden who did a good job of listening to them and asking for their votes. He didn't just go for the Black community, which is in the minority anyway. He appealed to a diverse group and it worked. It doesn't hurt that he does astute things like defending LSU's integrity when they tried to hijack the Chancellor's job last year in a bout of nepotism. You can't even put Holden and Melton in the same league. Melton is a buffoon while Kip fights for BR, not whatever idea burns through his brain for 30 seconds.

6. Focus on downtown. In BR there is a more concerted effort to revitalize downtown that has been underway for some time. Jackson is just now beginning to stir in this area of focus but is still way behind in its efforts. It will be another 3 years or so before the current efforts begin to pay off in jackson.

7. Nightlife. I personally know nightclub owners in BR that actually believe in spending money on their nightclubs as long as they turn a profit. You have several popular nightclubs that have been around for quite awhile. Station. Sullivans. Churchills. New place called the Wine Loft. Southdowns. In Jackson for the most part, the nightclub owners build the nightclubs as cheaply as possible, little thought to quality is given, and when they make their money they quit spending any but the bare minimum on the nightclubs. See: Dock, Shuckers, Rodeos/north end/fire.

8. Restaurants as a whole are better in BR. This is probably due in fact to it being close to N.O. so people have a higher level of expectations for the food and service at restaurants than they do in jackson.

9. Publications. time to kiss Donna's azz. In BR, the paper is locally owned. THe manships have been a visible and active part of the community. In Jackson, Gannett owns CL, pays everyone on a shoestring, and sucks all the profits out of state. For 25 years you have had BR Business Report, which is very proactive in promoting BR even while running hard hitting critical stories. It simply blows away Miss Business Journal, which is nothing but a joke of a rag. It started up 225 Magazine, which is so popular it flies off the newsracks and is out usually one week into its one month run. In Jackson, you have recently had the JFP start up but it is playing catchup in terms of promoting the community. I mean catchup in terms of how this community compares to others. There really hasn't been a publication promoting Jackson or questioning long held assumptions about what is best for Jackson. There are improvements I would suggest to it but hey, we are all critics to some degree. ;-) .

10. Crime? Jackson is a worse town right now. The Katrina evacuee problem has settled down quite a bit in both cities. Crime however, is much worse in Jackson right now. By the way, how can you tell me I'm wrong when the mayor won't even release crime stats.

I'd say the college atmosphere, the system of governments, restaurants & nighlife, cultural events, and industrial base makes BR a little more attractive than Jackson right now. There is a major push in BR and has been for sometime to develop downtown BR. The condos by the river and all the lofts/condos going up around campus. Around campus is the new hot area for singles and young families to live, not just students. There is a large segment of society pushing to improve BR while in Jackson, you are just starting to see that the last few years at a comparable level. In jackson, you've had alot more competition with surrounding towns than BR has. Having said that, they really all do need to get together and cooperate more on projects and things that will build the whole area.

anyway, those are my unqualified musings. I have season tickets to LSU football, baseball, and the BR symphony. I think I get out quite a bit to know what I am talking about.

I was waiting for Kingfish to respond to this one! I lived in BR in the mid-90s and I second most of what he said. And my friends both black and white in BR seem to like Mayor Holden, even with some of the heat he took in the media in the days immediately following Katrina. Melton isn't even comparable to Holden, who actually respects his job and duties as "The Mayor" and not Dictator-in-Chief like Melton.

Only thing I can add is Baton Rouge traffic was horrible when I lived there. The transportation grid never really seemed to keep pace with the white flight/commuting traffic and gridlock was a common everyday thing, unlike here where Jackson was barely managing to keep pace with traffic growth by expanding most of its major roads. But BR was finally making strides in the last decade in getting its road system up to capacity with new routes, wider roads, etc, and was turning the corner on its traffic problems before Katrina added so many evacuees to its population.

I never worried much about crime in B.R. when I lived there, but I did hear a lot about it. The majority of crime that I was familiar with happened in N.O.; what crime I knew of in B.R. was mainly in certain neighborhoods and around LSU. I know they are still struggling to tackle their crime problem especially post-Katrina but again, when you have a mayor who actually respects his role without overstepping his authority, it can go a long way to finding solutions.

One last thing. Riverfront development. we are sluggards in comparison.

In BR they have paved the levees, lit them up at night, brought in a WWII destroyer as an attraction, built an arena, planetarium, and museum by the river complete with very nice fountains. That riverfront area is a very nice attraction.

Here, its a joke. Our pearl runs through Jackson and looks like a mudhole. No planning, no development, nothing to make it the jewel of the area. The way its been neglected is almost criminal and a perfect example of the attitude our society and leaders here in Jackson have had in moving Jackson forward.

That is one reason I like the two lake idea. I think a concept like that or variation of it would improve the look of Jackson and revitalize downtown.

ejeff, the final nail for Simpson was when he pushed through that Walmart on College Drive. that outraged everyone.

another thing ejeff, my pet peeve. No damn good Italian restaurants here. Don't tell me about Amerigo's and Fratesi's. Until you been to Ginos and all you've had is what is here, you don't know Italian food. Same thing for Ruffinos or some of the others. I bet the Italian afficionados here even know what an arancine is.

Kingfish, I really miss the po-boys in B.R. There was a joint near south Bluebonnet Blvd that I really enjoyed. Something seems fake about the ones up here! And I agree with you about the riverfront development. Don't you think the addition of riverboat gambling also increased the city's desire to revitalize downtown and further develop the riverfront attractions? Their downtown isn't much bigger than Jackson's but there seems to be more "after 5" nightlife going on down there now than when I lived there.

brewbachers is what you are thinking of. Sal and Phil's is pretty good. Gaming is part of it but frankly, they put so many restrictions on it that it never really became a player down there. The casinos there are small and don't do anything to generate money like they do on the coast with concerts, restaurants, golf courses, hotels, etc. They are a small part of the scene. Look at the downtown development and they are light years ahead of us. They see the river as an asset and try to develop it. One person comes up with a plan to develop the river here (two lakes) and too many people try to tear it down without coming up with a concrete, specific plan of their own.

thanks for the comments, King.... It's been a year or so since I've been to BR and I never really had any reason to make it back.

Jackson is not a great sports town. But, really. Outside of LSU (which has been discussed ad nauseum in this thread) and the Saints, I've never considered Baton Rouge to be. They don't even have an affiliated baseball team (have they ever?) and I don't think that their support for hockey ever really even reached the level that the Bandits had here the first few years. And Jackson drew more for a Saints preseason game than BR ever did for a REAL one. BUT, this argument is probably about like two not-so-well-endowed men comparing...errr...endowedness.

As for the rest of it, I'd say that I'd take your word for it, but after dealing with you a few times.... ;-) I've been down there enough to form my own opinions, so I'm not gonna rehash them. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

um, baseball?

5 times NCAA champs. Number one in college baseball ticket sales which is 7000 with a waiting list for season tickets. Comparable to any minor league baseball fan base if not more so.

Millhouse, everything I listed is pretty verifiable facts.

Kingfish, much of what you listed were your opinions. Which is fine.... but, damn. You're on a Jackson board and trying to convince me that everything in Baton Rouge is verifiably better - and I've been there enough to know that's not remotely what I believe to be true based on the seemingly hundreds of times I've been there.

And then you couldn't even argue the ONE point that I brought up from your ungodly long post? If anything, you proved me right. Pretty much everything revolves around LSU sports and nothing else. And, like I said, "sports scenes" in neither Jackson nor Baton Rouge are worth arguing about. So, I'm not gonna talk about it anymore.

Willezurmacht writes:
The main problem with the Jackson area has always been that it is split into competing factions, sections, etc. and has never been able to maintain a comprehensive identity.

And you think New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Atlanta, et. al. don't have competing factions?

Jackson is a dying city and has been for at least twenty years.

For a "dying city," it sure is showing an awful lot of life--a new $37 million museum on the way, likely another $50 million museum after that, King Edward renovation, Farish Street Entertainment District, Fortification renovation, new downtown lofts, Fondren renaissance, rapidly expanding JSU programs (and I've put in some quality time on campus lately, by the way--LOVE IT), and so on and so forth.

I think the perception is that the city is dying because of post-segregation white flight, but you know, there are worse things to be than a centrally-located capital city surrounded by wealthy suburbs. And if there are folks who don't want to live in the chocolate city, that's fine with me--I do, I'm happy here, and don't plan on leaving.

By the way, if certain folks spent as much time arguing with comments like "Jackson is a dying city and has been for at least twenty years" as they did telling us that Melton is ruining everything, I would have a much easier time believing that they were really committed to the future of Jackson and not just enjoying the new excuse they have to bash it.


Cheers,

TH

I wrote:
By the way, if certain folks spent as much time arguing with comments like "Jackson is a dying city and has been for at least twenty years" as they did telling us that Melton is ruining everything, I would have a much easier time believing that they were really committed to the future of Jackson and not just enjoying the new excuse they have to bash it.

(And by "certain folks" I am referring specifically to one person, who whined about "the few good things we have here" and then accused me of having a "Melton pipe dream" when I suggested that we should still act like proud Jackson citizens and not bitter suburbanites. I am not referring to folks who actually didn't see this thread, or find it dull, etc. I am especially--I want to make this explicit--not referring to Donna Ladd and the JFP staff, who have been pro-Jackson all the way along the line.)

Millhouse:

I don't know why the personal attacks.

I count LSU as a sports scene. Hell, there are whole cottage industries and bars devoted to it. THere is no minor league baseball but keep in mind that they have had a top baseball program that with playoffs, last until late June, thus dampening interest in minor league baseball.

I understand where you are coming from. Until recently I would say they were dead even. It wasn't until the last two years or so with the riverfront development and the construction of the Shaw Center that downtown really started coming into its own.

I think you'd agree that the system of government here hurts Jackson and has set up some unnatural and unnecessary adversity between the two governments.

I think what you would agree with my thoughts is on this: Jackson has been somewhat stagnant for quite some time. However, I think it is starting to move forward and credit people like David Watkins and Mr. McGowan (at least he is trying to think of something to move forward) who are putting their money and idea where their mouths are and boosting this city. I think even if left leaning and going against the grain, the JFP is doing a long needed job in promoting Jackson and putting the spotlight on people that are trying to promote the area.

Other than LSU in the past, you were right about alot of things but they are now coming out of the LSU shell and looking forward. That is not a slight upon Jackson. As for the point you did bring up, I consider BR is a sports town because of LSU. I wouldn't put it on the level of Chicago or ATL by no means but I would put it up above say Jackson, Shreveport, or Mobile.

Now for my own pet peeve:

Get rid of the damn monopoly the state has on wine.

I'm tired of driving to Martins in N.O. to get good wines and it would be nice if we could have real wine stores here.

I will stand behind my observations. Perhaps "dying" is the wrong word to use, would "failure to thrive" be more accurate? As for the the competing factions in Atlanta, New York, etc.-- Does anyone really want to compare the growth rates in these cities to Jackson's??
I do not believe that realistically discussing the city's current status is "bashing" it.

I will readily agree that the trend towards suburbanization has hurt Jackson's downtown growth immeasurably. This trend, it should be noted, is finally beginning to be reversed. It won't happen overnight, but it has -at least- begun in earnest.

Willezurmacht writes:
I will stand behind my observations. Perhaps "dying" is the wrong word to use, would "failure to thrive" be more accurate? As for the the competing factions in Atlanta, New York, etc.-- Does anyone really want to compare the growth rates in these cities to Jackson's??

I'm not talking about growth rates; it's called "white flight" for a reason. I'm interested in talking about how the city performs economically and culturally for those of us interested in remaining in it post-integration, and on that level I think it's fantastic and getting steadily better. I don't see how you can look at the amount of economic development that's going on here right now and say that the city is "dying."

I do not believe that realistically discussing the city's current status is "bashing" it.

And I do not believe that repeating tired old lines about how Southern cities in transition are "dying" constitutes a realistic discussion of the city's current status.


Cheers,

TH

"I don't know why the personal attacks. "

Personal attacks?? Dude. Anybody that's read this board with any amount of regularity has seen your posts and seen that you don't always make any sense. I wasn't making it personal. We've had exchanges in the past that defied all logic.

I know I said I'd give up on the ridiculous "sports scene" comments, but you keep bringing it up. The excuse you just gave is just that. An excuse. LSU baseball was nothing until the 90's with Stanley Bertman. How did Jackson and every other city in the southeast have professional baseball decades before? Was the entire city of Baton Rouge too busy miring in the mediocrity of LSU baseball to want something professional?

Just like so many of the rest of your arguments, this one has holes all in it. It's taking all of the self restraint in my body to not light into you about the downtown comparisons....good lord.

All, too much to catch up on during my D.C. sojourn -- but I will say that I've long thought pro-Jackson folks should start their own group. I mean, I understand that a citizens' group (of what is inevitably now a bunch of very embarassed and humiliated people) from North Jackson actually put together Melton's campaign. I mean, what better karma than a bunch o0f folks getting together who really care about the city and who want to balance all the crap? I encourage y'all to go for it.

Also, somewhere in the last couple days I say Kaze make some very wise comments along the same lines. I look forward to finding those and pondering them.

Ciao. Back home soon.

Millhouse, I am merely quoting what stories covering the baseball issue have said. It has been looked at and covered in the media there. Several so called experts said that it was because of LSU baseball and the fan support for it.

Having said that, the Zephyr's and Green Wave seem to do just fine. You are correct in what you say. Before Skip, there was no support for baseball. Maybe its success over the last 15 years will have encouraged support for minor league baseball. However, they are about to build a new Alex Box stadium and I see that eating up alot of corporate support.

I'd love to debate downtown comparisons with you. fire away.

Tom, one of Jackson's main problems, like I've written before, is the lack of space for new residential construction. I think some new subdivisions in Jackson would go along way in revitalizing it. What is the answer? I don't know. ALong Nicholson drive in BR (there is a story in BR Business Report about it) leading into campus a realtor was able to convince all the homeowners up and down the street to sell their homes. They are going to subdivide the lots and and build new homes. There is a demand for new housing in Jackson, just no where to build it unless you start wholesale demolition of existing homes and building new ones.

From a technical standpoint, Jackson doesn't have minor league baseball either- Pearl does. That is why I like to see the entire Metro area supported and promoted, not just this city or that suburb.

Interesting demographic about Jackson and similar with the larger metro areas in the south such as Atlanta, Charlotte, Nashville, and Raleigh. They all have two major interstate highways crossing in the middle of each. And those Interstates all lead to somewhere strategic and vital to the national interests. If I were a "bettin" man I'd throw my lot to a city that sits at the crossing of the numbers 20 and 55...as the next regional "Bulls Eye"......and I have a sneekin suspicion that I ain't alone......

Worldcom gone for sure...but look at the spin offs..Cellular South.....and then there is Nissan and it's supports and what the supports are drawing in have made up for the Worldcom loss.....That city's medical base is also nothing to thumb the nose at. Couple all that with Trucking, Banking, Government, Education.......Warehousing/Distribution. It's obvious even to the most casual observer what's going on there now.....

I'm just thinking off the top of my head here. Perhaps the solution to Jackson's housing problem may be a vertical solution. Instead of encouraging the house on lot thing with its attendant sprawl, why not engage in making the best use of the land that Jackson already has..I.E. multi-story housing and shopping/business integrated in a traditional urban pattern? While vertical living may not be for everyone, and probably isn't yet in the minds of many in the Jackson metro area, maybe it's time to consider more of this type of building pattern in Jackson. If coupled with intelligent planning, it could well be the city's salvation.

"And I do not believe that repeating tired old lines about how Southern cities in transition are "dying" constitutes a realistic discussion of the city's current status."
Transition from what to what?

I have looked back over the thread, and I apologize if I have been rude to anyone. But the fact is that delusional thinking about the health of Jackson does not help anyone. We must accurately assess the situation and move realistically from there. The different projects that are cited above as evidence of Jackson's growth are essentially elite-to-elite transfers of wealth or outside capitol that will send profits out of state. The convention center, telecom center, etc. are currently financial burdens on the city and quickly driving the credit rating of the city down. I am happy to take anyone on a driving tour of West or South Jackson and we can look for evidence of growth that affects the MAJORITY of the residents of the city and/or quality of life for most people. Renovations of downtown buildings are not going to offset the loss of the hundreds of small businesses that have closed in there areas, not to mention the destruction of the tax base. After viewing the 200o census data from the area it is no longer possible to blame the current situation on "white flight." The flight that has been occuring in the last decade has been just as much black flight as white. Demographics have been stable for a while now. The current problem is the creation of personal feifdoms by political elements in the power structure, incomeptence, ineffeciency, and inertia. Can this be overcome? Can Jackson reverse these trends? Yes. That is the reality, and from this sober discussion hope can emerge.

Here is another group in New Orleans. They are very aggressive and were formed after Katrina.

http://www.citizensfor1greaterneworleans.com/