I'm so glad you asked that question.:) There has been lots of bad information spread in the press and here are some great resources for learning how the founder of Black Liberation Theology intended and still intends for his work to be viewed.


NPR Link

So, in a nutshell, Black Liberation Theology is a spiritual approach to the Black Power Movement?

The Rev. James Cone is the founder of black liberation theology. In an interview with Terry Gross, Cone explains the movement, which has roots in 1960s civil-rights activism and draws inspiration from both the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. and Malcolm X, as "mainly a theology that sees God as concerned with the poor and the weak."

Cone also comments on controversial remarks made by the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Barack Obama's former minister and a black liberation theology proponent.

In a now-famous 2003 sermon, Wright charged that an ingrained, abiding racism in American society is at fault for many of the troubles African-Americans face, and he thundered, "No, no, no, not God bless America! God damn America — that's in the Bible — for killing innocent people."

Cone explains that at the core of black liberation theology is an effort — in a white-dominated society, in which black has been defined as evil — to make the gospel relevant to the life and struggles of American blacks, and to help black people learn to love themselves. It's an attempt, he says "to teach people how to be both unapologetically black and Christian at the same time."

This part to me trancends race:

Dwight Hopkins, a professor at the University of Chicago Divinity School, ... cites the words of Mary in the Magnificat — also known as the "Song of Mary" — in which she says God intends to bring down the mighty and raise the lowly. Hopkins also notes that in the book of Matthew, Jesus says the path to heaven is to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and the prisoners. And the central text for black liberation theology can be found in Chapter 4 of Luke's gospel, where Jesus outlines the purpose of his ministry.

"Jesus says my mission is to eradicate poverty and to bring about freedom and liberation for the oppressed," Hopkins says. "And most Christian pastors in America skip over that part of the book."

I would like to know what people think of this part:

Hopkins attends Trinity United Church of Christ, where Rev. Wright just retired as pastor. In the now-famous sermon from 2003, Wright said black people's troubles are a result of racism that still exists in America, crying out, "No, no, no, not God bless America! God damn America — that's in the Bible — for killing innocent people."

According to Hopkins, that was theological wordplay — because the word "damn" is straight out of the Bible and has a specific meaning in the original Hebrew.

"It means a sacred condemnation by God to a wayward nation who has strayed from issues of justice, strayed from issues of peace, strayed from issues of reconciliation," Hopkins says.

as a proud black man i must say that i find nothing wrong with either the sermon in 2003 or in either explanation...white supremacy attempts to say that one cannot be for anything if they are black, they have to be against something...sometimes i feel as if i am being told that basically because i love black people, i must hate white people...that is not the case...i have no historical evidence to believe that white people have my best interest at heart and i love me some emily braden...the reality of this situation is that when black men say anything other than profanity laced raps people tend to have a problem...i too believe that 9-11 was karma...i too am not certain that aids wasnt man made...i too want good schools for all children...i too believe in god and that jesus was his son...but i also believe that god gave me logic and to not look at white folk with suspicion after all they have done in this world is impossible for me at this point in my life…people, mainly white folk and black folk that don’t wanna start no mess, fail to accept the impact of a white god…or how and why black women put chemicals on their head…or why little girls hate their skin, why little boys and big ones too only believe that athletics and music are their only way out of a life of poverty…why we continue to deal with institutional racism, but when a black man says i don’t love America…yall got problems…i don’t love America, i will only stand and sing lift every voice and sing…i will not allow my children to say the pledge of allegiance. i am unapologetically black and make no efforts to include others that don’t seek inclusion…i love everybody, but i love me more…i aint sorry…

skipp, i was wondering if you could back up either of these statements made by you:

"i too believe that 9-11 was karma...i too am not certain that aids wasnt man made"

I'll back up skipp's statements. I think he said it just right (maybe a paragraph break or two for clarity might be nice, tho).

I was just wondering about some kind of factual basis for either of statements, or if they were just conjecture.

Ax, about the 9-11 being Karma part, I can answer in phonetic Tibetan..."Sak che nyer lin gyi pun pio yun yang-ne yang-du le pan yi korwa yin."

Or, Karma as "the condition of having to take on over and over again the stream of impure thoughts that was forced on you by your previous thoughts and deeds."

My interpretation of skipp's comment about 9-11 being karma is, when a country is founded on genocide and slavery and doesn't deal with it and break the wheel (korwa), then unfortunately, the stream (yang-ne yang-du) of stuff happens (9-11).

Sorry my Tibetan isn't more fluent, I'm a little rusty. if I've missed the mark skipp can correct me.

Somehow I doubt Tibetan philosophy can explain either of Skipp's comments. Both comments are ludacris and ill-informed.

Well, Ax, it's a bit hard to be "informed" about exactly one thinks is karma. Obviously, you believe it or you don't.

However, were one to argue the 9-11 question on an "informed" basis rather than just express their more spiritual view of it, one could certainly discuss the "blowback" aspect of the U.S. creating/empowering/bolstering leaders like Osama bin Laden (not to mention Saddam Hussein, even if he is essentially irrelevant to a 9-11 conversation) and looking the other way as long as they turn their wrath on people/regimes we don't like.

Should one take that informed path of inquiry, then the "karmic" point rather slaps you in the face, whether you agree with it or not.

So 3000 people being summarily murdered in the course of minutes is karma? Riiiiiiiiggggghhhhhtttttt. Anyone want to defend skipp's other comment regarding AIDS?

I thought it was fairly well established as fact that AIDS came from monkeys in Africa.

I will say this Ax. Its arrogant of us as human beings to NOT explore the realms of ALL possibilities. Its also asinine of those folks who call people who question or criticize the government traitors. Loving America does not mean you dont doubt the accounts of events or question motives and tactics of your government. It fact, it means exactly the opposite. Questioning government is exactly what this country was founded on and "patriots" need look no further than the birth of this nation to see that. Questioning your government, ciritcizing your government is the most patriotic thing you can do. I love my country too but I can say in all certainty that I have not been very proud of its actions in the last 8 years. History shows that government isnt always honest..

NOW..to comment on the issue. There have been documentaries and internet films that state a very compelling case for the 9-11 issue and i msure there's some floating about the AIDS epidemic. and while I CANNOT beyond a reasonable doubt PROVE that America had anything to do with 9-11 or AIDS I CANNOT disprove those theories either. You say skipp should back up his accusations..I say you should back yours up. Because although I cant say they DID you cant say they DIDNT without the same proof. do you have proff to convince a skeptic otherwise??

Or do you just arbitrarily believe EVERYTHING your government tells you? In my world EVERYBODY'S suspect

Ok, Kamikaze, I'll back my own thoughts on 9-11 and AIDS:

1) On September 11, 2001, several terrorists hijacked 2 planes and crashed them into the World Trade Center. Both buildings fell as a result of two very large, very fast, and very explosive planes. Approximately 3000 people died as a result of terrorists hijacking planes. That seems like a pretty simple syllogism and it had nothing to do karma or payback or blowback, because the motives of people are mutable. The facts are simple.

2) As for the origin of AIDS, here is a great article: http://weber.ucsd.edu/~jmoore/publications/HIVorigin.html

The short and skinny is that AIDS most likely originated from monkey to man through blood transfer during butchering. This is not my opinion, this is an accepted view by thousands of medical and research professionals.

So 3000 people being summarily murdered in the course of minutes is karma? Riiiiiiiiggggghhhhhtttttt.

I didn't say it was. But your belittlement of Skipp's belief seems to indicate that you wouldn't believe in any kind of what-goes-around-comes-around philosophy. I mean that kind of philosophy goes all the way back to biblical teachings. (Remember the Ark?)

In this case, I personally would be less likely to argue that 9-11 was simply karma, unless you believe in a sort of pragmatic karma. In other words, I would be more likely to argue that 9-11 grew out of the U.S. past efforts in Afghanistan, etc., that helped create the movement that bin Laden leads. (If you don't know the history I'm speaking of, just put the phrases "blowback" and "bin Laden" into Google, and I'm confident you'll find some background.) It's funny how your latest "syllogism" doesn't even consider how/why those particular people became terrorists in the first place, which means that you are hiding behind a logical fallacy.

So some may call being willing to look at the causes of terrorism, and the U.S. role in it, "karma"; others could consider it "reaping what we've sown." Others, such as yourself, may choose not to look at the causes at all, which is your choice. But remember that doesn't make your viewpoint any more compelling, or true, than anyone else's. So lose the superior attitude; you have said nothing yet to show that you have thought about any of this any more than anyone else here.

The AIDS issue is a different one, but no less important, and no more deserving of your juvenile belittlement. We've discussed this one already—essentially the reasons that black Americans might actually believe such a thing is based on actualy history, such as the Tuskegee Experiments and so on. Google that, too, if you're not up on the history well enough to participate in an adult conversation about that issue.

The bigger conversation here is about trust, and what America, and the American government, has done to instill it—both among American citizens and abroad. The people least likely to understand these concepts are those who have benefitted from these policies the most. But answering with belittlement is not going to get you anywhere but kicked off this site if you keep it up. However, if you want to have a serious conversation, and just act a fool like you're doing, you're welcome to change your tone starting with your next post. Self-regulation is a personal choice.

Donna, I have been as serious as a heart-attack in all my comments. I think skipp was out of line in saying 9-11 was karma and AIDS was man-made. If you call that "belittlement" then you are also way out of line. I love how you rule this little domain and are so AFRAID of someone actually challenging your beliefs that you have to resort to "BANNING" them, which effectively code for "CENSORSHIP." And yes, Censorship does exist in the private sector, even on the JFP website, when the controls disagree with challenging ideas.

So go ahead, Donna. Ban my viewpoints, but let me make them clear for the few people who actually get to see them:

1) 9-11 WAS NOT KARMA FOR THE BAD ACTS OF THE UNITED STATES.

2) AIDS WAS NOT MAN-MADE.

Yea, real controversial stuff here. LOL. Wow. I'm way out of line with these strange ideas.

Plausible response. Good. Those facts you gave are well known accounts. But when you dig deeper and ask..Was America aware and did nothing to stop it?? Speculation of the hole in the pentagon?? why did our war quickly turn from Osama to Iraq based on a semingly contrived relationship between the two..

Im not saying youre wrong..But Im also not sayying skipp is wrong..Neither of you have proven to me othewise with irrefutable proof. Which for me means the issue should be open for debate. Not just patriots instantly shooting down notions by theorists who believe othrwise. Your response was suppose to answer my questions about 9-11..it didnt. Because I dont take that account as gospel. You do. And although the AIDS thing may be harder to make out as a conspiracy..Its not like this country hasnt done it before. Go read up on the Tuskeegee Airmen

There is evidence that the Saudi Arabian government looked the other way while Osama bin Laden was financed by oil rich Saudis when he was fighting against the Soviet Union in the 1980’s and this was encouraged by agents of the U.S. government. That led to that rooster becoming the hero of many muslims. Bin laden’s turning around and targeting innocent Americans is what they refer to as the chicken coming home to roost. The terrorist that we were happy to see fighting the Russians in the 80’s came back to peck us --- the innocents. See "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" by John Perkins.

On why some otherwise reasonable people think the AIDS virus may have something to do with the government:
http://www.umedia.com/MediaMike/GovAtrocities.html

New York Times reports 3 die from experimental AIDS vaccine: <http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE3D7133AF934A25754C0A967958260>

In The River: A Journey to the Source of HIV and AIDS , published in 1999, Edward Hooper details how polio vaccine was made using monkey (and possibly chimp) kidneys and how the ancestor virus of HIV could have jumped species (via the vaccine) to produce the outbreak of AIDS in Africa. Hooper's well-researched book greatly expands the polio vaccine theory of AIDS first reportedly Tom Curtis in Rolling Stone magazine in 1992, and The River is a must-read for anyone interested in the possible man-made origin of AIDS.

Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit from revolutionists and rebels - men and women who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine. As their heirs, may we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion.

Dwight D. Eisenhower

and ax...do you agree at least that Ameica has commited some ''Bad Acts''

Ax, get. over. yourself. It doesn't matter what you think about how I run the site; let's just stipulate that from the get-go. If you want to complaint about that, follow the user agreement and e-mail about it. Don't post your whining here. It will be deleted.

Now, on the topic: the problem is that you are belitting without listening. It is extremely misinformed to argue that the U.S. did nothing at any point to "make them hate us," which eventually led to 9-11. That does not justify it in any way—terrorism is terrorism and horribly no matter from whence it came—but it does mean that it's worth looking at U.S. policy in order to do what we can now to prevent the creation of terrorists like bin Laden in the future.

You can call that karma if you want, which is a matter of spiritual belief, and not up to you, me or the dogcatcher to belittle. Or, as I do, you can just call it smart.

As for AIDS, I don't believe that the government created AIDS to kill black people. However, in a world where Hitler tried to exterminate the Jews and the U.S. supported killing innocent black Americans during the Tuskegee Experiments all in the 20th century—not to mention that the state of Mississippi tried to starve blacks into submission in the 1960s, you know by withholding food commodities—you are the one being obtuse and naive to belittle people for believing that a government is capable of such a thing.

The point is that the U.S.—and particularly white Americans—have a lot of trust-building to do. The fact that so many educated, intelligent people can believe such a horrible thing about our governments shows the work that has to be done, and it starts by individuals such as yourself putting two seconds of thought into these issues, rather than belittling people. Others here who don't believe can do that—disagreeing and discussing respectfully. And understand this is not a forum for you to try to squelch conversation you don't want to hear. Trying to do that is what gets you kicked off; not disagreeing. Try to be thoughtful enough to understand that. If not, get lost. Your choice.

Ax im a big man and I don’t need to hide behind some monitor and keyboard to say what I believe…the problem I find in what you says refers back to a statement brad made about neither of us having proof…I don’t have any and if you can read…I think my statement was, “I too am not certain that aids wasn’t man made” notice the “not certain” part…I may be wrong, but I do not for one millisecond put anything past people that will give men syphilis just to watch them die and see what happens…

See I think it was Malcolm X who said that white people have the theory of the constitution and black people deal with the realities of it…see brad can say that he loves america…I don’t cause I haven’t been shown that she loves me…you can sit behind your computer and see a completely different world than I do because you have different experiences.

Quick story: I was 8 or 9 playing soccer for the goal bandits in swjsl…we had a game in pearl I get the ball and score…I was called a “n*****” by the wonderful people of pearl, ms…not a teammate or coach said a word…my mom asked me if I wanted to go I told her no I wanted to win and we won…I went home…I was never invited over to events with my teammates at their homes and I never wondered or worried about that until just now…but no one said a thing…if adults will do that to a child, what will they do to an adult…

See that alone helps you to understand that I don’t love this country…I accept it…you don’t want to hold hands or understand and I accept that too…see im tough, im realistic, im cynical, f#@! me once shame on you f#@! me twice I like it…

I guess youre one of those people who doesn’t think Israel does anything wrong either…those Palestine’s outta let stuff go…make peace and be agreeable…its always funny to hear southern white talk like this…reconstruction, brown I, brown II, the highway act…yall don’t or don’t wanna understand…

I stand behind every sentence I wrote…you wanna talk about 3000 people murdered…3000…“It’s a tragedy that U.S. soldiers have killed so many civilians in Baghdad,” said Joe Stork, acting executive director of the Middle East and North Africa division at Human Rights Watch. “But it’s really incredible that the U.S. military does not even count these deaths. Any time U.S. forces kill an Iraqi civilian in questionable circumstances, they should investigate the incident.”…so we don’t know how many people the US military have killed in IRAQ!...not in the rest of the world but in IRAQ! During a war that has been “WON!” you celebrate what your country does…your ancestors or people that don’t look like me founded it for the benefit of people that don’t look like me…has progress been made? To most, to me merely concessions…it is what it is hero…GOD Bless America…

Karma says that the bad things we do come back to haunt us. some reasonable people agree that supporting those (Saudis) who supported Osama bin laden in the 80's may have come back to haunt us.

This doesn't meant that two wrongs make a right.

Is ax a scientist of some sort? I wonder how he/she knows how AIDS came to be when there is wide disagreement among highly accomplished scientists?

I'm just curious, how he/she is so highly certain.

Like Ladd, I do not believe that AIDs was invented out of a conspiracy to kill gays and black people; however, i do find it plausible (and there is some evidence for this) that it could have been created mistakenly by government agencies that were trying out new vaccines.

I also consider it plausible that there may have been a cover up of this possibility. We only recently became aware of some of the details of experiments on human prisoners that took place in Pennsylvania in the early seventies.

I do love America. My slave and freed ancestors worked TOO hard to build this place up for me not to appreciate it. My father got three bronze stars fighting for this country at a time when he had to come back to this country where he was being denied the right to vote.

I state my allegiance this way:
I question and challenge; therefore, I am...a patriot.

I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free...
To speak my mind without being accused of engaging in hate speech (or am I?).

A theory advocated by some scientists suggests that the brutal policies of European colonial governments may be responsible for the conditions that created the AIDs virus:

http://www.ohsu.edu/gha/docs/MooreAmSci.pdf

Kamikaze "And although the AIDS thing may be harder to make out as a conspiracy..Its not like this country hasnt done it before. Go read up on the Tuskeegee Airmen"-Kamikaze

A minor mis-speak Kaze? I'm thinking you meant the Tuskegee Experiment (syphylus experiments done on black men without their consent).

My wife's Dad, on the other hand, was in the Tuskegee Airmen, the famed all black WWII fighting unit before President Dwight D. Eisenhower integrated the US military.

"I guess youre one of those people who doesn’t think Israel does anything wrong either…those Palestine’s outta let stuff go…make peace and be agreeable…its always funny to hear southern white talk like this…reconstruction, brown I, brown II, the highway act…yall don’t or don’t wanna understand…" -skipp

Answer: No I'm not.

"Now, on the topic: the problem is that you are belitting without listening. It is extremely misinformed to argue that the U.S. did nothing at any point to "make them hate us," which eventually led to 9-11. That does not justify it in any way—terrorism is terrorism and horribly no matter from whence it came—but it does mean that it's worth looking at U.S. policy in order to do what we can now to prevent the creation of terrorists like bin Laden in the future. " -ladd

Answer: I'm not talking about prevention. I am saying that 9-11 was not karma on the United States. Also, ladd, I was wondering if you and skipp could clarify if you mean karma in a collective sense, that being that New Yorkers were on the business end of recieving the "payback" or "blowback" or was it the United States as a country or was it our government, or was it the individuals in the towers? Was it one of children that died? Or maybe the NYFD firefighter that caught an I-beam from one of the towers in his forehead? Karma is a tricky thing when you start blatantly attributing it the way skipp originally did:

"i too believe that 9-11 was karma" -skipp

Going back to the original intent of the thread, Jeremiah Wright was not simply "blaming America for 9-11" as has been distorted by the lynch mob (my term). In the "chickens coming home to roost" comment he was quoting a white former diplomat to make a larger point that God will condemn/damn America if WE do not change our ways.

The prophet Jonah had a duty to warn Ninevah that it faced damnation if it did not repent. I believe that in the tradition of the prophets, Wright was not himself cursing America, but was actually trying to do America the same favor that Jonah did Ninevah. Be warned that if you do not change you WILL surely be destroyed. Liberation theology is about the change that you can not only believe in, but that can also save your city, neighborhood or nation.

I have not heard "the hate speech" that some say that Wright engaged in. IF he did engage in speech that encouraged the hatred of a particular ethnic group, then I do condemn it. I just have not heard that.

If WE will only repent and change our ways...Before us lies both a blessing AND a curse. The media has only focused on the curse snippet.

See Deuteronomy Chapter 11:13-29.

ax...if i run around shooting people and blowing stuff up, i shouldnt be surprised if, more likely when, i get shot or blown up...those "terrorists" attacked the world trade center...that building has been attacked several times...it aint surprising it was attacked again... it was an attack on america where innocent people were killed …

well when america attacks iraq, people are hurt in those attacks. we don’t attempt to explain the attack, we accept it as an attack on iraq…bottom line people were hurt during an attack on america…i think that was CBS’s tagline for their coverage…

its not dangerous…you wanna talk about what happened to average americans…what about average iraqis, what about average afghanis, what about average Somalis, what about average poor people…i don’t buy this tragic event crap youre pushing ax…no sympathy…i feel for those families that lost people they love, but its funny how this us vs. them things takes place when them is different…i didn’t see this government declaring war on poor white folk in montana after ok city…white guys aren’t detained and suspected like “arab-looking” men and women to get on a plane…the burdens of white men were created by white men…america acted, bin laden acted, poor people acted all were affected…big deal, in the scheme of things my life is no more valuable than the life of al-sadr, my mother loves me, his mother loves him, we were created in the image of god, when we die, we will be mourned by some…it is what it is…

Ax, the problem is that a belief in "karma" is, uh, in the eye of the beholder. Just like some people's belief that certain things (like AIDS, in fact, according to many Christians) are a result of the wrath of God.

In other words, it doesn't matter what you think about Skipp's spiritual beliefs. It's all subjective and personal, and just like he can't prove that 9-11 was "karma," you cannot prove that it wasn't. So I trust that we can let this rather dumb bone of contention go, eh?

Beyond that, I have no interest in defining "karma" for you. You're capable of looking it up and finding that many people use it in different ways, and always subjectively.

As for "blowback," that's a bit more documentable, and it's a different discussion point, although there is some obvious overlap in the reasoning that the U.S. has taken actions in the past that helped lead us to 9-11. You can pretty much stipulate that point—and "stipulate" is not synonymous with "condone." You don't have to believe in karma, or even God or any other more esoteric vision of payback or reap-what-you-sow, to understand that the U.S. helped bin Laden (not to mention Hussein) gain power and a following. And no one should have to apologize for pointing that out to people who seem to have little knowledge of our history. Understanding history is how we keep from repeating it.

Now, I trust that you will return remarks on this thread to Liberation Theology and observe the user agreement going forward.